“No passaran!”

[Blagsta]

Thats a tautology wage labour is exploitative for a reason not just because it is. i always thought it was because of the creation of surplus value, rather than the exchanging of a monetary symbol per re. If the surplus wealth is re-distributed whats the problem?

If some people own private property (i.e. land, resources, means of production) and others don't, then the people who don't are forced to work for the people that do, on their terms. In a nutshell.

 

[Blagsta]

Its not that exploitative if strong unions and laws ensure that surplus value is given back to the workers. Compared say to a collectivist or unrestricted capitalist system where exploitation can be widespread

Add Capital by Marx to that list of books I sent you!

 

[moon23]

ViolentPanda All markets are balanced by conflict as are all human relationships. Human conflict would exist without the market. This system attempt to balance interests where possible and yes it would be according to the views of the community so grass roots participation is key.

 

[Sue]

Moon23, surprised to see you worked for 10 years.

I find it difficult to understand half of what you're saying as you're using 23 political theory words where one normal word would do.

I always think if people come out with jargon and can't explain what they mean in everyday language, then they don't really know what they're talking about. (And are going to find it difficult to talk to people who haven't read all the books -- that is, most people -- but have a good grasp of the practicalities.)

 

[moon23]

Sue have you read the Class Bead game by Hesse? It covers that problem as one of its themes. You do not think that about science surely? All subjects have thier lexicon and a complex issue is not easy to simplify

 

[moon23]

Blagsta a strong union can control the labour limiting the extent to which an owner can use the means of production to exploit labour. Laws governing the formation of companies can restrict the ability to gain so much capital so can laws about passing on wealth down generations. Such a balance of conflict of interest would not be easy to resolve

 

[moon23]

Such tension is still dynamic so mitigates against the problems of stagnation and black market crime that emerge in planned economies

 

[Sue]

Sue have you read the Class Bead game by Hesse? It covers that problem as one of its themes. You do not think that about science surely? All subjects have thier lexicon and a complex issue is not easy to simplify

Moon23, if this thread has come to any kind of conclusion, it's that if you want to stop people voting BNP, you need to look at why they're voting BNP.

Why use a 'lexicon' that is not understood by the vast majority of people (myself included) and then claim it's complex and that it's their fault they don't understand you?

Issues like housing and jobs and antisocial behaviour and whatever else are everyday things that people talk about all the time in everyday language. People are not stupid and treating them like they are is, shall we say, counterproductive.

 

[moon23]

Sue unlike TV i dont normally dumb down my language as I think doing so would be a bit patronising. it also takes more skill to communicate complex ideas in simple terms i feel we are drawing to a close now and thats an important point to muse on.

 

[Sue]

I'm not talking about dumbing down.

Anyway, yes, hopefully you've found the thread interesting/useful.

 

[moon23]

no your talking about effective communication. Thanks it has been interesting and the book suggestions from Blagsta are useful. A few rude comments thrown my way but in thicked skinned enough to take that. I wont be going away but will try to keep other threads a bit more on topic thx

 

[Blagsta]

Blagsta a strong union can control the labour limiting the extent to which an owner can use the means of production to exploit labour. Laws governing the formation of companies can restrict the ability to gain so much capital so can laws about passing on wealth down generations. Such a balance of conflict of interest would not be easy to resolve

You're ignoring the basic point. Some people being forced to work for others is inherently exploitative.

 

[Blagsta]

Such tension is still dynamic so mitigates against the problems of stagnation and black market crime that emerge in planned economies

Whose proposing a planned economy?

 

[butchersapron]

That's what the book say the opposition to a free market is

 

[Pickman's model]

You're ignoring the basic point. Some people being forced to work for others is inherently exploitative.

people have been banging their heads against the brick wall that is moon23 for hours now: without success.

 

[Blagsta]

people have been banging their heads against the brick wall that is moon23 for hours now: without success.

I have faith in him. Just needs a little "re-education" Hey, it worked on me.

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[moon23]

Whose proposing a planned economy?

North Korea

 

[Pickman's model]

North Korea

not proposing, operating.

 

[Blagsta]

North Korea

A masterful non sequitur!

 

[butchersapron]

North Korea

Which, i think, shows up the false oppostion (@paul calf) that you've set yourself. NK is a regime of a special type, it's nothing to do with some general opposition model to real capitalism.

 

[moon23]

I have faith in him. Just needs a little "re-education" Hey, it worked on me.

Thanks maybe one day moon will find a board that tolerates him! Im aware at how capital exploits people though

 

[Pickman's model]

Thanks maybe one day moon will find a board that tolerates him! Im aware at how capital exploits people though

i don't think you are, your posts certainly don't show any great comprehension.

 

[Blagsta]

Thanks maybe one day moon will find a board that tolerates him! Im aware at how capital exploits people though

If you're aware, why are you arguing in favour of it while calling yourself an anarchist?

 

[Pickman's model]

If you're aware, why are you arguing in favour of it while calling yourself an anarchist?

false consciousness?

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks maybe one day moon will find a board that tolerates him! Im aware at how capital exploits people though

I think you've been having people replying with a smile on their face and that - people wanting to point out where you're going massively wrong..but...

 

[moon23]

Which, i think, shows up the false oppostion (@paul calf) that you've set yourself. NK is a regime of a special type, it's nothing to do with some general opposition model to real capitalism.

Blast you have ruined my straw man you fiend night night!

 

[moon23]

im trying to argue against myself in part and also im never 100% of these things. Question everything has been my motto for today. By in large I agree with your critiques and im not so massivly behind everything although they have all bed doubts not been simply trolling, but whats the alternative... Where are we the radical alternative at and how do we get were we want to be or even agree where we want to be?

 

[moon23]

i don't think you are, your posts certainly don't show any great comprehension.

As far as I can tell you exceed in being rude at least that is something

 

[Pickman's model]

i'll give it a go, but i can't promise you'll be pleased with the results. as anyone who knows me will tell you, i am very offensive and foul-mouthed and have been for many years.

you've not really learnt anything from this thread have you?