“No passaran!”

[cesare]

There's comperting defintions - none of which support your version. Wtf is it with lib-dems on here thinking that they're anarchists? That's three now isn't it?

There's Shevek, can't think of the other one. Odd though innit.

 

[Pickman's model]

If it's all the same with you, I'd rather not.

Especially not Oxford.

you have a degree from cantab?

 

[Pickman's model]

There's Shevek, can't think of the other one. Odd though innit.

perverse

 

[moon23]

I dont think there is a need to be abusive, if you disagree thats fine but there is litte need to be hurtful particulay when im interesting in hearing your views.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'll give it a go, but i can't promise you'll be pleased with the results. as anyone who knows me will tell you, i am very offensive and foul-mouthed and have been for many years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I say paradoxicaly because it also creates the conditions in which facisin can emerge...

The establishment doesn't create those condition, capitalism (the same force that creates "establishments" of the type you're talking about) does.

...which is why we must seek to reform it whilst also on occasions working with it.

Mmmm, because reformism has a proven track record of success, doesn't it?

Remember it was the industrial might of our establishment that defeated nazisism a threat to its own vested interests.

No, it was the deployment of a massive military project overwhelmingly peopled by the working class that defeated Nazism, "the establishment" merely provided the (very expensive and therefore very profitable) tools.

 

[moon23]

There's Shevek, can't think of the other one. Odd though innit.

Im not a lib dem though already said that

 

[ViolentPanda]

you have a degree from cantab?

Most certainly not!!

 

[Pickman's model]

Most certainly not!!

 

[moon23]

Yes I take your point about working classes actually fighting the war but surley because the establishment decided it was in thier own vested interest to send people to thier deaths

 

[butchersapron]

connect... the... dots...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you so intent on marginalising yourself that you are willing to offend all Liberal Democrats ? Come on these are all people some of which may have some good ideas about fighting facisism.

They have ideas. Whether those ideas are "good" or not depends on your perspective. I don't personally see how rearranging the current political furniture equates to a "good idea".

 

[Blagsta]

The point is we cant be dogmatic in fighting facisism we need a new approach and we should not exclude people who might be of use. Im advocating unitity thats all

There is no unity. How can there be unity with people who want to maintain the status quo? A status quo which gives rise to the conditions in which fascism grows? How can there be unity with people who want to divide society even further based on property ownership?

You're being very naive mate.

 

[moon23]

people who had parents and (other) family killed in the holocaust do not necessarily have top politics, or politics capable of doing more than sounding off against the bnp. their membership of the establishment gives them a rather vested interest in the status quo ante, and i for one have little interest working with people who simply want their interests shored up and have no concern for the creation of a better world.

Me too but some members of the establishment are fooled and think that capitalism makes peoples lives better and so do care about making a better world

 

[Blagsta]

If you say so, its a semantic point unless there is an official definition of anarchism which would seem paradoxical to me. I feel like you are trying to pigeon hole my politics when we probably agree on a lot and could be working in a more constructive discourse.

You believe in capitalist free markets. That is not an anarchist position.

 

[FreddyB]

Me too but some members of the establishment are fooled and think that capitalism makes peoples lives better and so do care about making a better world

fooled by who?

Have you considered the possibility that what a better world looks like depends almost entirely on your own perspective?

 

[ViolentPanda]

An anarcho-liberal who thinks there is a need for grass roots democratic organisations to oppose state and corporate monopolies. Hence why Im an active trade unionist as I think free markets are a good thing so long as they are actively partially opposed to mitigate against thier worse aspects in a balanced conflict of interest. This thread is getting a bit moon focused

Its not surprising that your political views are odd. That's the finest mass of contradictions I've seen in a single post since the days of max_freakout.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point is we cant be dogmatic in fighting facisism we need a new approach and we should not exclude people who might be of use. Im advocating unitity thats all

Nobody has said that dogmatism is required, but there's a point to be made that the methods with which you challenge fascists and fascism need to be relevant to those who are most likely to be affected by fascism, and not predicated on supporting the political status quo and upholding our pseudo-democratic form of government (which is what has always happened if people listen to arguments put forth by our political establishment).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes I take your point about working classes actually fighting the war but surley because the establishment decided it was in thier own vested interest to send people to thier deaths

and...?

C'mon, think about it.

No?

I'll lay it out for you.

You're talking about working with the kind of people who'd do that sort of thing, you're talking about aiding an entity that'd think nothing of buying entirely into a politics that might see masses of us dead.
Me, I'd rather not give my cooperation to people who'll use any power we cede to them for their own immediate ends.

 

[moon23]

The system plays those who are implicit in it. It forces people to look after thier own vested interests or be shafted. All respect to those who resist it but most dont. Im not going to exclude these people from political dialogue on principle sorry

 

[butchersapron]

What?

 

[Pickman's model]

The system plays those who are implicit in it. It forces people to look after thier own vested interests or be shafted. All respect to those who resist it but most dont. Im not going to exclude these people from political dialogue on principle sorry

once more, this time in english.

 

[moon23]

You believe in capitalist free markets. That is not an anarchist position.

Have you not read Murray Routhbard? There are anarcho-capitalist schools of thought its open for debate not a closed book.

 

[butchersapron]

Murray Rothbard! Brilliant! The veneer starts to er...crumble?

It is a closed book and shit one too.

 

[Pickman's model]

Have you not read Murray Routhbard? There are anarcho-capitalist schools of thought its open for debate not a closed book.

good god man you're all over the bloody shop - have you no self-respect?

 

[Sue]

Moon23, I think you should maybe read a bit less theory and try talking to people a bit more.

Everyone else on this thread -- you have a lot more stamina/patience than I do...

 

[moon23]

Moon23, I think you should maybe read a bit less theory and try talking to people a bit more.

Everyone else on this thread -- you have a lot more stamina/patience than I do...

Actualy you a probably right Sue! Sorry if im trying peoples patience but I fail to see how removing property or money will make thinks fairer. Inequality exists in societies with monetary systems and those without them.

 

[moon23]

why dont people send me some book suggestions via a private msg and at the same time ill take Sues advice to speak more and read less Lol

 

[butchersapron]

Moon23, I think you should maybe read a bit less theory and try talking to people a bit more.

Or listening...

 

[Pickman's model]

let's just take this simple step by simple step in the hope that moon23 can keep up.

there is no point in allying with establishment figures for the sake of 'unity' in anti-fascism (or anything else for that matter) while these establishment types have a vested interest in the status quo.

have you got that, moon23?