“No passaran!”

[FreddyB]

Have another go. I asked what right anyone has to prevent any democratically elected politician taking their seat.

This could easily be an argument about the legitimacy of electoral politics. It wouldn't be productive though.

The real question is practical and tactical. Can this actually be done, would it achieve anything if it was done? If you don't think it's achievable then do you think the fact of some people trying to do it, being seen to try would have any affect, would it be a positive one?

Asking myself those questions leads me to conclude it's a bad idea.

 

[berniedicters]

You really should indicate where youre quoting other peoples words if you want people to take your posts seriously. I'm sure you've been told this before.

Well, I've only mentioned it to him about a dozen times, and it prompted a bit of a hissy fit then...

 

[newbie]

the original and best

Respect collapses and pm come back.

all good

 

[moon23]

There is nothing undemocratic against protesting against the BNP on the streets using violence or violent language like 'smash the BNP' grants the facists a propaganda victory. Just doing nothing or trying to win a debate against them is hopeless it just gives them a platform. They dont follow rational arguments. We need peaceful protests to show our opposition but more importantly we need to engage with politics and ensure we together tackle the causes of racism

 

[tim]

But either way, adopting a liberal stance of only opposing the far-right through debate, fails to take account of the real threat they pose at a local level, in terms of the propensity for racist attacks to increase in areas where they have made electoral gains.




Once again it's not me!!! And I don't know where you get the romantic-nostalgic posturing from...I wouldn't have thought there's anything at all romantic about risking arrest or injury when participating in this type of protest. As for it being undemocratic, well I think it might be worth considering this:

"It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing for evil to triumph'!

The 'romantic-nostalic' comment reflects that you (and your chums) clearly see yourself as latter day 19th century Romantic heroes, wannabe Byrons and Shelley's. as to the Burke quote, I think it's trumped by the Voltaire.

 

[the button]

as to the Burke quote, I think it's trumped by the Voltaire.

Which Voltaire?

As a result of a hierarchy of nations, Negroes are thus slaves of other men ... a people that sells its own children is more condemnable than the buyer; this commerce demonstrates our superiority; he who gives himself a master was born to have one.

 

[tim]

Which Voltaire?

Oh, dear clearly not 'that' Voltaire. I was thinking he 'nice' wishy-washy liberal

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire.

A quote which I have rediscovered/ been assisted in remembering is not actually authentic, but was invented for him at the start of the last century.

 

[partyzan]

The 'romantic-nostalic' comment reflects that you (and your chums) clearly see yourself as latter day 19th century Romantic heroes, wannabe Byrons and Shelley's. as to the Burke quote, I think it's trumped by the Voltaire.

I'm sorry I really must be missing something here, but you haven't provided the slightest shred of evidence to support this extremely bold assertion!...but if i get the gist of the basis for your insult, which is what I think it's meant to be, then surely you're a century out, aren't you, cos my romanticised heroes, if I'm forced to have any, which I'm sure would make you feel so much better, are the likes of Durutti and Makhnov!

Honestly dude you really do need to chill a bit....as I'm not at all averse to being constructively challenged over my posts!

 

[tim]

I'm sorry I really must be missing something here, but you haven't provided the slightest shred of evidence to support this extremely bold assertion!...but if i get the gist of the basis for your insult, which is what I think it's meant to be, then surely you're a century out, aren't you, cos my romanticised heroes, if I'm forced to have any, which I'm sure would make you feel so much better, are the likes of Durutti and Makhnov!

Honestly dude you really do need to chill a bit....as I'm not at all averse to being constructively challenged over my posts!

You clearly have missed something, my references are to the idea of the "Romantic hero" as outlined here.

Mahkhanov and Durutti at least were in situations where ,however fruitlessly, they could adopt such a role. There is a difference between participating in the Russian revolution or the Spanish civil war and chucking a few eggs at Nick the Nazi in a Brussells car park and then getting a kicking from some Belgian plods. The latter is rather pointless and rather counterproductive.

 

[partyzan]

You clearly have missed something, my references are to the idea of the "Romantic hero" as outlined here.

Mahkhanov and Durutti at least were in situations where ,however fruitlessly, they could adopt such a role. There is a difference between participating in the Russian revolution or the Spanish civil war and chucking a few eggs at Nick the Nazi in a Brussells car park and then getting a kicking from some Belgian plods. The latter is rather pointless and rather counterproductive.

But I wasn't using Durutti or Makhnov to justify the demo!!! This is kinda' going around in circles a little bit. The point of the demo is quite simply to oppose fascism, and okay people may think the strategy of it is flawed, but essentially it's a protest against a political movement that is premised on an ideology of hate and social division. You might not agree with this, but the threat of the BNP is very real to many people from minority ethnic groups, especially those living in communities blighted by racist violence. It might be a few eggs but it's a political statement in the same way as standing up to the cops who'll be protecting them.

 

[tim]

But I wasn't using Durutti or Makhnov to justify the demo!!! This is kinda' going around in circles a little bit. The point of the demo is quite simply to oppose fascism, and okay people may think the strategy of it is flawed, but essentially it's a protest against a political movement that is premised on an ideology of hate and social division. You might not agree with this, but the threat of the BNP is very real to many people from minority ethnic groups, especially those living in communities blighted by racist violence. It might be a few eggs but it's a political statement in the same way as standing up to the cops who'll be protecting them.

Is it about opposing fascism or about grandstanding? If you want to oppose the BNP go out on the streetsand out argue them. How is trying to stop them going through a door in Brussels going to help those threatened by BNP violence and intimidation back here in Britain.

As to standing up to the cops who'll be "protecting them", well they'll only be there protecting "them" because you and your friends are proposing to attack "them". Creating a situation that gives Englishmiddle class wannabe heroes an excuse to attack working class foreign cops.

 

[partyzan]

Is it about opposing fascism or about grandstanding? If you want to oppose the BNP go out on the streetsand out argue them. How is trying to stop them going through a door in Brussels going to help those threatened by BNP violence and intimidation back here in Britain.

But like I've said before opposition takes many forms, whether it be picketing in Brussels or challenging their arguments on the streets of Stoke. They all serve a different purpose.

As to standing up to the cops who'll be "protecting them", well they'll only be there protecting "them" because you and your friends are proposing to attack "them".

Once again it's not ME or MY friends!!!! I am merely putting an argument across in support of the planned action, and if I'm correct I don't remember seeing any reference to advocating physical violence.

Creating a situation that gives Englishmiddle class wannabe heroes an excuse to attack working class foreign cops.

Once again you're making sweeping generalisations as I think you'll find that the anti-fascist movement is made up of people from a cross section of society...and the last thing that most people would want is a showdown with the police, but sometimes civil disobedience, such as sit-ins, pickets or occupations are necessary, the problem is whether the actions of the police inflame the situation - as to whether they're working class or not, seems to be irrelevant.

 

[butchersapron]

It doesn't matter - the argument, because this daft kneejerk nonsense isn't going to happen, expect as possible nice weekednd away for a few bods.

Defend the EU from fascists indeed!

 

[moon23]

It doesn't matter - the argument, because this daft kneejerk nonsense isn't going to happen, expect as possible nice weekednd away for a few bods.

Defend the EU from fascists indeed!

Might I suggest you and try and barricade them all once they are in there, or build an identical EU building to trick them into.

 

[berniedicters]

There is nothing undemocratic against protesting against the BNP on the streets using violence or violent language like 'smash the BNP' grants the facists a propaganda victory. Just doing nothing or trying to win a debate against them is hopeless it just gives them a platform. They dont follow rational arguments. We need peaceful protests to show our opposition but more importantly we need to engage with politics and ensure we together tackle the causes of racism

OK, so there's nothing undemocratic about violent protest against the BNP. So what about violent protest against, say, the SWP? Or perhaps UKIP? Or New Labour?

Who gets to decide when violent protest is democratic, and when - as it surely must be if we're effectively saying that it's always a valid form of political expression - it becomes undemocratic?

And how is that distinction democratically determined?

I think the point of democracy is that the BNP is entitled to a platform. They are allowed to express their views, within the constraints of our existing legal system. There are things they're not allowed to do, but those are a matter of legality, not democracy.

One of the BNP's best recruiting sergeants at the moment is "you, the poor oppressed indigenous white working class, we feel your pain". They can point at how they aren't allowed to express their views either, and how this means that they are the natural party to represent someone who no longer feels represented by his traditional political group - presumably Labour. They tone down their racist language in carefully-worded leaflets, and because they're so rarely ever to be seen on TV or in public engaging spontaneously with the media (or the people), those weasel words are able to be the nice face of the racist nationalists.

Ultimately, I think that is going to make the BNP a worse problem. People will start voting for them because they see them as the underdog, regardless of what their political goals might be. My guess is that most, if not all, of the BNP's elected representatives are there for such reasons, rather than because such a substantial proportion of the electorate subscribe to the same white supremacist views they hold. We're playing into their hands. We should be letting them damn themselves out of their own mouths - be seen to be scrupulously fair to them in ensuring that they have a platform on which to speak...and scrupulously fairly challenging them on the inconsistencies and vaguenesses of their policies, of which there are many, to the point that they repeatedly humiliate themselves publicly.

What are we actually scared of about letting them speak? Do we have such a disdain for the voters who listen to them that we must cover their ears for their own protection?

 

[moon23]

I tried to make the differeance between violent and non-violent protest clear. I meant people have a right to non violent protest against the BNP. some people think even this form of protest is undemocratic as they won an election.

 

[moon23]

The argument is giving the BNP a platform allows them a chance to spread thier views. Allowing them to speak and then attacking thier arguments may work but if they start gaining a foothold on the streets in working class communties they will spread thier views further.

 

[Sue]

Allowing them to speak and then attacking thier arguments may work but if they start gaining a foothold on the streets in working class communties they will spread thier views further.

More than 50 local councillors and two MEPs would suggest that they've already gained a foothold.

 

[moon23]

Yes it would Sue but by in large not on the streets apart from in a few locations.

 

[butchersapron]

wtf does this 'on the street' nonsense mean? They've gained their foothold in pubs, in clubs, in peoples homes, at work, at the football and so on. 'On the streets' - what a meaningless militant sounding empty phrase.

 

[partyzan]

Ultimately, I think that is going to make the BNP a worse problem. People will start voting for them because they see them as the underdog, regardless of what their political goals might be. My guess is that most, if not all, of the BNP's elected representatives are there for such reasons, rather than because such a substantial proportion of the electorate subscribe to the same white supremacist views they hold.

I agree that the vast majority of BNP voters are not necessarily white supremacists, but they are most definitely racist and xenophobic, and as such have the potential to be persuaded to develop more hardline views depending on the success of the BNP and the extent to which they are involved in the lives of the communities in which they gain they support.

We're playing into their hands. We should be letting them damn themselves out of their own mouths - be seen to be scrupulously fair to them in ensuring that they have a platform on which to speak...and scrupulously fairly challenging them on the inconsistencies and vaguenesses of their policies, of which there are many, to the point that they repeatedly humiliate themselves publicly.

But this still allows them the 'oxygen of publicity', and this is linked to a rise in racist attacks in the areas in which they canvass.

What are we actually scared of about letting them speak? Do we have such a disdain for the voters who listen to them that we must cover their ears for their own protection?

Unfortunately the BNP's politics of xenephobia makes it far easier for a lot of people to understand the complex problems they face especially in terms of unemployment, housing, welfare etc - it simplifies the causes and solutions to a problem - and this is exactly why their propaganda is dangerous.

 

[partyzan]

Yes it would Sue but by in large not on the streets apart from in a few locations.

I think the amount of support they have in Stoke, where they were apparently close to controlling the Council, just shows how much of a threat they are, and also how successful they have become as a political organisation.

 

[moon23]

wtf does this 'on the street' nonsense mean? They've gained their foothold in pubs, in clubs, in peoples homes, at work, at the football and so on. 'On the streets' - what a meaningless militant sounding empty phrase.

By that phrase, I mean as you say in the communtity, and sadly your right they are gaining a good foothold. Rather than directing so much hostilility perhaps you and sue could come up with a list of practical things people could do. Chances are people may already be doing these things but it would be helpfull.

 

[tim]

By that phrase, I mean as you say in the communtity, and sadly your right they are gaining a good foothold. Rather than directing so much hostilility perhaps you and sue could come up with a list of practical things people could do. Chances are people may already be doing these things but it would be helpfull.

How about a Labour government that insread of chasing the middle-class marginal constituency votes starts addressing the social and economic needs of people who live in places like Stoke the Pennine towns and Dagenham. Give people a decent standard of living and the belief that they have a future

 

[Pickman's model]

We should be letting them damn themselves out of their own mouths - be seen to be scrupulously fair to them in ensuring that they have a platform on which to speak...and scrupulously fairly challenging them on the inconsistencies and vaguenesses of their policies, of which there are many, to the point that they repeatedly humiliate themselves publicly.

What are we actually scared of about letting them speak? Do we have such a disdain for the voters who listen to them that we must cover their ears for their own protection?

you seem to miss that this has already been tried - and failed.

 

[partyzan]

How about a Labour government that insread of chasing the middle-class marginal constituency votes starts addressing the social and economic needs of people who live in places like Stoke the Pennine towns and Dagenham. Give people a decent standard of living and the belief that they have a future

....or arguaby, why don't the people in these areas stop blaming people from minority groups for their problems! Because what you're effectively saying is that the only cure for racism is to tackle socio-economic deprivation, which takes the responsibility away from individuals to challenge their own bigotted and chauvinistic attitudes. The problem with racism, it doesn't go away, it merely manifests itself in different ways, and becomes more apparent during times of social and economic adversity!

 

[tim]

....or arguaby, why don't the people in these areas stop blaming people from minority groups for their problems! Because what you're effectively saying is that the only cure for racism is to tackle socio-economic deprivation, which takes the responsibility away from individuals to challenge their own bigotted and chauvinistic attitudes. The problem with racism, it doesn't go away, it merely manifests itself in different ways, and becomes more apparent during times of social and economic adversity!

Fine words from someone who thinks that the BNP can be defeated by stopping them entering the European parliament. What I'm daying that is that people turn to parties like the BNP because they've been failed by the other parties. Whether you like it or not bigotry and chauvinism thrive in situations of injustice if you don't tackle those problems you will achieve little.

Your a bit of a pseudoanarchist if you think that actually changing society is less important than shouting slogans

 

[mauvais]

Sir wheat! Pickmans is backk!

 

[partyzan]

Fine words from someone who thinks that the BNP can be defeated by stopping them entering the European parliament.

LMFAO...please, I beg you direct me to where I said or maybe even implied this. Why must you persist in either misrepresenting or misinterpreting my posts?

What I'm daying that is that people turn to parties like the BNP because they've been failed by the other parties. Whether you like it or not bigotry and chauvinism thrive in situations of injustice if you don't tackle those problems you will achieve little.

Unfortunately bigotry and chauvimism is always present in society, not just in times of adversity, it's just the extent and nature of it that varies. So would you agree that the people who voted BNP are racist?

Your a bit of a pseudoanarchist if you think that actually changing society is less important than shouting slogans

Please don't even try and pigeon hole me politically, cos believe me you wouldn't even come close to getting it right.

And as for shouting slogans, well sometimes you have to do this to get your point across, but it's hardly the be all and end all.....but once again you seem to be making all manner of totally incorrect assumptions about my perspectives on this issue - shame on you!

 

[Blagsta]

So would you agree that the people who voted BNP are racist?

They're not all racist. This is a stupid pov.