What were the worst events in the British Empire?

[Gramsci]

I don't agree that naming individuals is the way to go. This lets the imperial system itself of the hook.

Found the Elkins youtube lecture and discussion I mentioned earlier.

Having read the book I think its good summary of it. Even if from a American perspective.

From American perspective the worst event was transatlantic slavery. Interesting aspect of the youtube discussion after her talk is that no one brings up Britains eastern empire. With loss of American colonies other parts of the Empire became more important.

Elkins concept of "legalised lawlessness" should really put paid to notions that the Empire was spreading "civilisation"

 

[Ax^]

I don't agree that naming individuals is the way to go. This lets the imperial system itself of the hook.

from the irish side of thinks Cromwell was a particular bastard worthy of naming ...

 

[Gramsci]

from the irish side of thinks Cromwell was a particular bastard worthy of naming ...

My issue with this line of thought was that apologists for Empire can use the "few rotten apples" line of arguement.

The British Empire was historically over a long period of time.

So the argument can go this way.

The "Whig" view is that the Empire matured. That over time it became a self correcting mechanism. Mistakes were made. Bad things were done. But "we" abolished slavery. As time went on "we" gradually gve up our colonies and they joined the family of nations in the Commonwealth under the Queen.

This is unlike say other Empires like the French. Who tried to hold on in Vietnam and Algeria.

And definitely unlike the Japanese and Nazi attempts at Empires.

Also a plus point of Empire was that whatever the oppressive nature of Empire "we" gave them ideas about democracy and rule of law etc.

So the view is that British Empire made mistakes, did bad things but in end gave up Empire in fairly peaceful way.

Which in the plus and minuses means that Britain can be proud that unlike other it gave up its Empire and set up a post Empire framework. The Commonwealth.

Its the fallback for the later supporters of Empire that "us" colonising "we" undermined ourselves with notions of democracy.

 

[butcher]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.

I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.

I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.

I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.

I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

Not sure that's all that relevant. You don't have to idealise victims - they're just people.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.



I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.



I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

Anyone who looks into the matter with any of your actual effort will know that irish migrants to North America mainly moved to the cities hence the large Irish populations of New York and Boston

 

[butcher]

Anyone who looks into the matter with any of your actual effort will know that irish migrants to North America mainly moved to the cities hence the large Irish populations of New York and Boston

as 4.5 million Irish arrived in America between 1820 and 1930. Between 1820 and 1860, the Irish constituted over one third of all immigrants to the United States. In the 1840s, they comprised nearly half of all immigrants to this nation.

Irish-Catholic Immigration to America | Irish | Immigration and Relocation in U.S. History | Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress | Library of Congress

The Carroll Mansion and St. Mary's from the Spa [Creek], Annapolis, Md. Irish-Catholic immigrants came to America during colonial times, too. For example, Charles Carroll immigrated to America in 1706. His grandson, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, signed his name to the Declaration of Independence.

www.loc.gov

And all in cities?

The makeup of those pushing West is harder to find.

Obviously moving off topic from the OP so will leave it for another designated thread.

ETA I am not brilliantly well-read in this area so was hoping those who were might be generous in their knowledge

 

[Pickman's model]

as 4.5 million Irish arrived in America between 1820 and 1930. Between 1820 and 1860, the Irish constituted over one third of all immigrants to the United States. In the 1840s, they comprised nearly half of all immigrants to this nation.

Irish-Catholic Immigration to America | Irish | Immigration and Relocation in U.S. History | Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress | Library of Congress

The Carroll Mansion and St. Mary's from the Spa [Creek], Annapolis, Md. Irish-Catholic immigrants came to America during colonial times, too. For example, Charles Carroll immigrated to America in 1706. His grandson, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, signed his name to the Declaration of Independence.

www.loc.gov

And all in cities?

The makeup of those pushing West is harder to find.

Obviously moving off topic from the OP so will leave it for another designated thread.

ETA I am not brilliantly well-read in this area so was hoping those who were might be generous in their knowledge

i was looking recently at peter o'leary's 'travels and experiences in canada, the red river territory and the united states' - online at the internet archive, Travels and experiences in Canada,the Red River territory and the United States : O'Leary, Peter, 1839-1920 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. this book, published in the mid-1870s, was written to attract irish migrants to rural areas in the united states and canada and to try to persuade them not to stop in cities such as toronto, new york and boston. if you look at An overview of Irish immigration to America from 1846 to the 1900s you'll find more information and a handy map showing the irish in the united states were largely from wisconsin east around 1890 and mostly in those states that formed the union during the civil war

 

[Ax^]

any history books of the irish migration to newfoundland that might have some of the best sources


"this place is colder in the winter than back home ... Grand"

 

[Spymaster]

The 2013/2014 Ashes series in Australia was definitely a low point.

 

[yield]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.

I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.

I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

How the Irish Became White by Noel Ignatiev is good.

How the Irish Became White

'…from time to time a study comes along that truly can be called ‘path breaking,’ ‘seminal,’ ‘essential,’ a ‘must read.’ How the Irish Became White is such a study.' John Bracey, W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies, University of Massachussetts, Amherst The Irish came to America...

www.routledge.com

 

[Aladdin]

I don't agree that naming individuals is the way to go. This lets the imperial system itself of the hook.

Found the Elkins youtube lecture and discussion I mentioned earlier.

Having read the book I think its good summary of it. Even if from a American perspective.

From American perspective the worst event was transatlantic slavery. Interesting aspect of the youtube discussion after her talk is that no one brings up Britains eastern empire. With loss of American colonies other parts of the Empire became more important.

Elkins concept of "legalised lawlessness" should really put paid to notions that the Empire was spreading "civilisation"

from the irish side of thinks Cromwell was a particular bastard worthy of naming ...

I agree with Ax^ on this. Cromwell terrorised the Irish.
He was celebrated in England and the Crown favoured him. His murderous campaigns in Ireland deserve to be mentioned and he deserves to be named.

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree with Ax^ on this. Cromwell terrorised the Irish.
He was celebrated in England and the Crown favoured him. His murderous campaigns in Ireland deserve to be mentioned and he deserves to be named.

Much of England hated him. And the Crown favoured him so much they dug up his corpse, beheaded it and stuck his head on a spike to rot. Tell me, have you heard how Charles I died?

 

[ska invita]

if anyone is after a catalogue of british atrocities this is the book

The Blood Never Dried: A People's History of the British Empire - AKUK the European home of AK Press and Distribution

Anarchist and radical book publishers and distributors. Literally thousands of titles available on line.

akuk.com

every chapter is harrowing but the "three opium wars" stood out as being particularly psychopathically sadistic

literally the first ive ever heard about the details of the "opium wars" in all the years ive lived in this country. funny that

 

[Aladdin]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.

I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.

I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

I would imagine that those who left Ireland left with nothing. Ended up as servants or slaves for a generation at least.
But they did involve themselves in gold rushes and land grabbing in the West and ultimately fighting with indigenous North American peoples and grabbing land. I recall reading somewhere that they didnt work out that well as white slaves...they burned easily...got sick...

I would not be surprised that an abused group of people could row in with slavery and treating people that were described by others as "beneath" them, badly....just to make sure they are a step higher than them socially. That they don't end up being abused again. And in order to survive they probably went along with whatever those in power did.
It's shameful. But not surprising ...

 

[Pickman's model]

if anyone is after a catalogue of british atrocities this is the book

The Blood Never Dried: A People's History of the British Empire - AKUK the European home of AK Press and Distribution

Anarchist and radical book publishers and distributors. Literally thousands of titles available on line.

akuk.com

every chapter is harrowing but the "three opium wars" stood out as being particularly psychopathically sadistic

When was the third one?

 

[Aladdin]

Much of England hated him. And the Crown favoured him so much they dug up his corpse, beheaded it and stuck his head on a spike to rot. Tell me, have you heard how Charles I died?

Yes but he is still up there as a huge historical figure...respected for pretty much pushing the British Empire into being isnt he?

I know ordinary people at the time hated him...but as regards empire...ordinary people didnt matter much did they.. He was crucial to the Empire.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes but he is still up there as a huge historical figure...respected for pretty much pushing the British Empire into being isnt he?

I know ordinary people at the time hated him...but as regards empire...ordinary people didnt matter much did they.. He was crucial to the Empire.

Yes you were wrong about him being favoured by the crown and yes you were wrong about how the people of his day felt about him but he's respected for pushing the British empire into being? Er who by? Haven't you heard of Elizabeth I and James I? It's in their reigns that things get going on the empire front. Fuck ordinary people, the royalists really hated Cromwell and I'm sure you know why.

 

[Aladdin]

Yes you were wrong about him being favoured by the crown and yes you were wrong about how the people of his day felt about him but he's respected for pushing the British empire into being? Er who by? Haven't you heard of Elizabeth I and James I? It's in their reigns that things get going on the empire front. Fuck ordinary people, the royalists really hated Cromwell and I'm sure you know why.

Ok..
I may be a bit confused.
Apologies.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok..
I may be a bit confused.
Apologies.

I think you know more history than you let on but it comes out garbled sometimes

 

[Aladdin]

I think you know more history than you let on bit it comes out garbled sometimes

My head is not great right now.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Not condoning the actions or inactions of the British Government during the Irish potato famine at all.

I do note however that much of the diaspora ended up in either Australia or North America. I wonder how many exiles treated the indigenous population in the same way as they had been.

I have tried to find any hard info on this but come up empty handed.

There's stuff on the Irish convict experience in New South Wales during transportation, some of it predating the famine. The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes talks about the tensions arising between Irish convicts trying to escape the chain gangs and being brought back by the authorities using aboriginal trackers.

I can't find.it now, but the book had a quote from an aboriginal man in the 1820's describing something of bad quality being "poor like croppy" (croppy being the local pejorative the English convicts used for the Irish).

The above.is from memory so may not be entirely accurate, but it's a book worth looking at.

 

[petee]

How the Irish Became White by Noel Ignatiev is good.

How the Irish Became White

'…from time to time a study comes along that truly can be called ‘path breaking,’ ‘seminal,’ ‘essential,’ a ‘must read.’ How the Irish Became White is such a study.' John Bracey, W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies, University of Massachussetts, Amherst The Irish came to America...

www.routledge.com

careful, Ignatiev gets alot of milage out of few examples.

 

[RedRedRose]

Grateful for the aforementioned reviews by Gramsci both on my reading list.

It's probably worth mentioning Mike Davis, who, unfortunately, died last year. In his book, Late Victorian Holocausts, he is primarily trying to debunk what might be dismissed as third-world tragedies as being a deliberate consequence of how colonial economics was designed to function. This is not repression or war, (that's probably a further addition) on the contrary, its colonial society dismantling local structures that previously would have dealt with aid relief, and environmental disasters like floods and droughts.

In terms of contestable numbers, he sates,

The European empires, together with Japan and the United States, rapaciously exploited the opportunity to wrest new colonies, expropriate communal lands, and tap novel sources of plantation and mine labor. What seemed from a metropolitan perspective the nineteenth century’s final blaze of imperial glory was, from an Asian or African viewpoint, only the hideous light of a giant funeral pyre.

The total human toll of these three waves of drought, famine and disease could not have been less than 30 million victims. Fifty million dead might not be unrealistic.

The actual tables provided by the book suggest up to 60 million could have been killed.

As his thesis seems to suggest,

We not are dealing, in other words, with “lands of famine” becalmed in stagnant backwaters of world history, but with the fate of tropical humanity at the precise moment (1870-1914) when its labor and products were being dynamically conscripted into a London-centered world economy. Millions died, not outside the “modern world system,” but in the very process of being forcibly incorporated into its economic and political structures. They died in the golden age of Liberal Capitalism; indeed, many were murdered, as we shall see, by the theological application of the sacred principles of Smith, Bentham and Mill.

 

[Ax^]

Yes you were wrong about him being favoured by the crown and yes you were wrong about how the people of his day felt about him but he's respected for pushing the British empire into being? Er who by? Haven't you heard of Elizabeth I and James I? It's in their reigns that things get going on the empire front. Fuck ordinary people, the royalists really hated Cromwell and I'm sure you know why.

tbf Liz 1 and James 1 did not really break the rights of Irish people to own land in Ireland which only really started to gain traction and Cromwell conquest and the start of the plantation

 

[ruffneck23]

Please dont laugh at me but I found this book to be really rather good at pointing out the shitness of the empire ( was reading it to my friends 5 year old last year)

Barmy British Empire (Horrible Histories): Amazon.co.uk: Deary, Terry, Brown, Martin: 9781407104218: Books

Buy Barmy British Empire (Horrible Histories) New Editon by Deary, Terry, Brown, Martin (ISBN: 9781407104218) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

tbf Liz 1 and James 1 did not really break the rights of Irish people to own land in Ireland which only really started to gain traction and Cromwell conquest and the start of the plantation

I think you need to look back before Cromwell for the start of the plantation.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's stuff on the Irish convict experience in New South Wales during transportation, some of it predating the famine. The Fatal Shore by Robert Hughes talks about the tensions arising between Irish convicts trying to escape the chain gangs and being brought back by the authorities using aboriginal trackers.



I can't find.it now, but the book had a quote from an aboriginal man in the 1820's describing something of bad quality being "poor like croppy" (croppy being the local pejorative the English convicts used for the Irish).



The above.is from memory so may not be entirely accurate, but it's a book worth looking at.

The history of tracking's not unproblematic, with it often being seen as a special skill of more 'primitive' peoples - see eg tim Stapleton's war and tracking in Africa 1952-1990. And tbh I wouldn't be too surprised by the aborigine's use of croppy, you'd need to look more deeply at the contexts in which they'd heard it used before using it as an example of their sharing the views of the English.

 

[Gramsci]

I do find the "whiteness" / white supremacy view rather depressing. Its , in different forms, seems to be a prevalent view.

I've started reading "Insurgent Empire" by Priyamvada Gopal.

Watched a few youtube discussions of her book as well. She is literature academic. Idea to write this book came after she had argument with Niall Ferguson about the British Empire on radio four. She argued that the Empire was violent and oppressive.

Her book looks at how ideas of freedom and fight against oppression were two way in the Empire. With the colonised and those in Britain learning from each other.

In one of her discussions about her book she says idea was looking at basis for solidarity. She does not say it explicitly but its not about just "White Supremacy".

Basically what I think she is saying is that it is worth looking at possible linkages between struggles at the heart of Empire and in the colonised.That outright opposition to Empire might have been marginal activity. But historically it needs recording as example of how solidarity can be envisaged.

And Ive been reading George Padmore. Contemporary of CLR James. From the Carribbean. Who saw opposition to Empire as compatible with class politics in Britain.

His writings from that time have sense of optimism hope for solidarity that appear to be lost now.

He is one of the important figures that Gopal discusses in her book Lived in this country for many years.

Imperialism: The Basis of Labour Party Crisis by George Padmore 1944

www.marxists.org

Therefore, the pressing need is to arrest the disastrous policies which the Trade Union hierarchy and right-wing political Labour leaders are imposing upon the Movement, and to rally the genuine Socialist forces inside and outside the Party round a programme of action that will inspire the masses and imbue them with confidence in themselves. With the will to power, a genuine Socialist movement in Britain, in alliance with the progressive forces in the Dominions, India and the Colonial Empire, can transform the imperial structure of British Capitalism into a genuine Socialist Commonwealth, for the benefit of all – white, brown, black, yellow. Only along this road will the British people find lasting security, economic prosperity and social well-being. The path of Empire and Power Politics held out to them by the Tories and their Labour supporters means war and economic disaster.

Insurgent Empire

Much has been written on the how colonial subjects took up British and European ideas and turned them against empire when making claims to freedom and self-determination. The possibility of reverse influence has been largely overlooked. Insurgent Empire shows how Britain's enslaved and colonial...

www.versobooks.com

Link to Gopal book. Subtitled " Anticolonial resistance and British Dissent" Which sums up what she is getting at in her book.

 

[Gramsci]

In the "forgotten armies" book I posted up remembered that Indian Nationalists were very interested in the IRA success in Ireland. Devoured any books on how the IRA became a successful guerilla army. In Bengal tactics were copied in opposing the empire.