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wahhabism and islamism

frogwoman

No amount of cajolery...
I really need to inform myself on this topic since I don't know a great deal about it - what do I need to understand in terms of the ideological/social/class etc roots and history of wahhabism and the growth of organisations like Isis etc? I have been looking around on YouTube etc but can't find anything that detailed and a lot of stuff I have found comes from people who clearly are pushing an agenda.

Anyone got any recommendations in terms of books/podcasts etc?
 
This is going to be an interesting few years for Saudi Arabia. King Abdullah was considered a reformer - his brother and predecessor, King Fahd, was a conservative who drove Saudi Arabia far deeper into Wahhabi Islam, in order to appease the clerics. King Abdullah, on the other hand, pushed quietly for a lot of reform for females and tried to reverse a lot of the change the hard-line conservatives in the country did during his predecessor's reign.

There are a LOT of people who don't quite understand the dynamic between the Saudi people and the Saudi government - an absolute monarchy - and why blaming splitting/spurning Saudi Arabia could hurt us a lot more than trying to keep reforms in Saudi Arabia going. The following is a bit of a history lesson, but very relevant to the struggle going on there.

First, we must go back to December 1979, a pivotal month year in modern Islam.

At the end of 1979, Islamists seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca, during the hajj, when millions around the world came for pilgrimage. Hundreds of pilgrims were taken hostage - hundreds died and the ringleaders were beheaded.

That same December, Ayatollah Khomeini officially became the 1st Supreme Leader of Iran. In doing so, his revolution had successfully created a Shia theocracy in Iran, a rival of the Arabs and in particular Saudi Arabia.

Also in December of 1979, the Soviet Union, an atheist state, invaded Afghanistan, an Islamic state.

Why do all of these tie in together?

For one, the Saudi royal family sees themselves as the caretakers of Mecca and Medina - a sort of royal protector of Islam like an Islamic Vatican State. In Iran in 1979, however, there was a new rival in both culture (Arabs vs Persian), religious sect (Sunni vs Shia), and now in government (monarchy vs theocracy). Note that many hardline Islamists do not believe that monarchies can exist in strict Islam - as thus, the Saudi royal family was nothing more than a western, imperialist creation that was ultimately un-Islamic. Furthermore, the agreement they've had with the US for protection (established by FDR during WW2 actually, after he met with the founder of Saudi Arabia, in exchange for logistics bases for the war) was seen as a mortal sin - dealing with an infidel country.

The Saudi family feared that Iran would become a model for the commoners to rise up. The Saudi populace is very conservative and while the Saudi royal family has been famous for its debauchery and westernized living (especially abroad), for the most part the population had been quiet. The Seizure of the Grand Mosque, however, sent a shockwave through the Saudi family - they were not immune. They feared they too would be toppled by an Iranian-style revolution by those who deemed them not Islamic-enough.

As thus, the Saudis embarked on appeasing the hardliner clerics with more strict laws, a tougher moral police, etc. Prior to all this, Saudi Arabia didn't have such strict laws as requiring women to be covered in public, foreign females could drive legally, etc. In exchange, the clerics continued the agreement to legitimize the Saudi family.

Furthermore, the Soviet invasion was an unexpected boon - the Saudi government encouraged young Islamist-leaning males to go fight in holy jihad against the atheist commies and defend Islam in Afghanistan. Also, many Saudi citizens donated money to establish mosques in Pakistan and Afghanistan to preach their ideology and send more fighters against the Soviets. All of this was welcomed by the Saudi government -this relieved a lot of the pressure internally as those fighters and money went away from funding fundamentalists internally.

Where did it all go wrong? Well, fast forward to 1991 and the Gulf War. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, Osama bin Laden - through his family connections - petitioned the Saudi king to let him and his hardened fighters in Afghanistan come and fight the Iraqis.

The Saudi King refused - instead, he requested the US and an international coalition come help. The Saudis volunteered their soil for US bases.

To Osama, this was the last straw - the Saudi King let an infidel army establish bases on the holiest soil in Islam. In turn, Osama declared war not just on the US and the west - but also on the Saudi government and its royal family.

This is why all the talk about removing our support from Saudi Arabia, etc. simply isn't going to happen. Yes, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens - but the Saudi government itself has been under attack by people of those same ideologies. The Saudi government has had to play a balancing act between its western-leaning royal family and the hardliner citizens that make up its population.

This is also why we need the Saudi government to come aboard in cracking down harder on its citizens - after a string of attacks in the 90s and 2000s, they finally came to a realization that they had to do something and it's made a lot of headway in the fight against Islamists.

And that's why Saudi Arabia has supported toppling Gaddafi (because he's a clown) and Assad (because he's an ally of Shia Iran), whether there are Islamist rebels or not -- its radical citizens have a place to go wage jihad away from home -- but also has supported toppling Morsi (because he's a hardline Islamist) and re-establishing the secular rule of the Egyptian military.
 
On Saudi Arabia: Its People, Past, Religion, Fault Lines--And Future

With over thirty years of experience writing about Saudi Arabia, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter and former publisher of The Wall Street Journal Karen Elliott House has an unprecedented knowledge of life inside this shrouded kingdom. Through anecdotes, observation, analysis, and extensive interviews, she navigates the maze in which Saudi citizens find themselves trapped and reveals the sometimes contradictory nature of the nation that is simultaneously a final bulwark against revolution in the Middle East and a wellspring of Islamic terrorists.

Saudi Arabia finds itself threatened by fissures and forces on all sides, and On Saudi Arabia explores in depth what this portends for the country’s future—and our own.
 
Inside the Kingdom Paperback by Robert Lacey

Saudi Arabia is a country defined by paradox: it sits atop some of the richest oil deposits in the world, and yet the country's roiling disaffection produced sixteen of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers. It is a modern state, driven by contemporary technology, and yet its powerful religious establishment would have its customs and practices rolled back to match those of the Prophet Muhammed over a thousand years ago. In a world where events in the Middle East continue to have geopolitical consequences far beyond the region's boundaries, an understanding of this complex nation is essential.

With Inside the Kingdom, British journalist and bestselling author Robert Lacey has given us one of the most penetrating and insightful looks at Saudi Arabia ever produced. More than twenty years after he first moved to the country to write about the Saudis at the end of the oil boom, Lacey has returned to find out how the consequences of the boom produced a society at war with itself.

Filled with stories told by a broad range of Saudis, from high princes and ambassadors to men and women on the street, Inside the Kingdom is in many ways the story of the Saudis in their own words.
 
Is there any truth to this? (Knotted, butchersapron, dialectician etc)

Because Osama bin Laden and most of
the hijackers are Saudi nationals, it was assumed that al-Qaeda is
an expression of Wahhabism. That is not the case. Wahhabi ulama
have maintained that it is the prerogative of the ruler to determine
when conditions warrant jihad. Bin Laden and others in the jihadist
tendency have unmoored the authority to declare jihad from the state
and assumed that authority because they deem Al Saud and other
Muslim rulers to be apostate. Hence, al-Qaeda is part of the jihadist
tendency whose intellectual roots go back to the Sayyid Qutb.60 He
viewed regimes in Muslim lands as a modern form of jahiliyya (pre-
Islamic barbarism) and he argued that Muslims must undertake jihad
to overthrow them in order to restore Islam.61
 
Good thread. :)

Question: It is often stated, indeed it is stated above in D4's link, that the Saudi population is deeply conservative.

I'd like to hear some more to explain how and why this conclusion has been reached. I understand that the country's religious elite is deeply conservative, but then so is much of the religious elite in Iran, and that is placed on top of a diverse population, most of whom, particularly the young, are considerably more liberal in their thinking than their religious leaders.

What is it about Saudi Arabia that leads commentators to conclude that its 28-million strong population is in tune with its conservative religious leaders in a way that Iran's population largely is not? It can't just be the presence of a few thousand radicals willing to fight jihad. That is surely only a very small minority compared to the whole population.
 
I don't think so. It's a difference in terms of the geo-politics of the Saudi state, not in terms of religious doctrine. I don't think Qutb had any influence on Al Qaeda.
 
I don't think so. It's a difference in terms of the geo-politics of the Saudi state, not in terms of religious doctrine. I don't think Qutb had any influence on Al Qaeda.

Its from here

http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Muslim_Sects/The-Wahhabi-Mission-and-Saudi-Arabia.pdf

The book seems to be arguing that Wahhabi doctrine became intensely conservative, inward looking and tied to loyalty to the Saudi state rather than having any desire to wage jihad against anyone without the permission of the king.

I'm not sure how much I go along with that, especially if you assume there are differences of thought in wahhabism, the book describes Saudi textbooks promoting intolerance towards infidels in Saudi funded schools etc, but then says that Qutb's ideology was a major influence on them rather than wahhabism.
 
I don't think so. It's a difference in terms of the geo-politics of the Saudi state, not in terms of religious doctrine. I don't think Qutb had any influence on Al Qaeda.


Completely different traditions. If you read milestones Qutb is scornful of crude jihadis. He's more about vanguardist consciousness and overcoming ignorance/domination by the other and a sort of sola scriptura enlightenment.

Of course, Qutb's outlook leads to a similar kind of authoritarianism as practiced by some of the present day jihadis.

He criticises, for instance, marxism in milestones for not satisfying basic human desires, far cry from the geopolitical responses of the wahabist milieu.
 
Any of these by Dr Madawi al Rasheed, who is a posh Saudi herself, but no apologist:
  • Demystifying the caliphate : historical memory and contemporary contexts 2013 ISBN 0199327955
  • A most masculine state : gender, politics and religion in Saudi Arabia, 2013 ISBN 052112252X
and on a less highbrow level you can see a lot about how Saudi society (between Saudis) actually works by watching the recent movie WADJDA.
 
Completely different traditions. If you read milestones Qutb is scornful of crude jihadis. He's more about vanguardist consciousness and overcoming ignorance/domination by the other and a sort of sola scriptura enlightenment.

Of course, Qutb's outlook leads to a similar kind of authoritarianism as practiced by some of the present day jihadis.

He criticises, for instance, marxism in milestones for not satisfying basic human desires, far cry from the geopolitical responses of the wahabist milieu.

Yeah, Qutb is writing and thinking about the modern world and the future, he is firmly rooted in the modern world - the leadership of mankind etc. Wahhabism looks to the fanatical 13th century cleric Ibn Taymiyyah and regards itself as the one true monotheism, "either you're one of us or you're against us" mentality. It's also a puritanical, aesthetic tradition, which is ironic given the personal excesses of the Saudi royal family. There's plenty of potential for Wahhabi rebellion against the house of Saud both in terms of opposition to subservience to the US (eg. Bin Laden) and in terms of religious antipathy to the lifestyle of the royal family.
 
So out of those, who has influenced a group like isis? Part of the blokes argument in defence of wahhabism is that wahhabis think that rulers shouldn't be overthrown except when they command believers to do unislamic things, and that only a legitimate ruler can declare jihad.

But surely it would be very easy for someone to look at al-baghdadi say and declare him the legitimate leader, and say that the house of saud etc are commanding unislamic things, and therefore jihadism was legitimate?
 
ISIS's roots are in Al-Qaeda in Iraq. I think they developed in a populist ultra sectarian direction that was too much for even Bin Laden. The main difference I think is that they aren't an elite group, but rather an army which isn't too fussy about it's recruits - the more the merrier, but their tradition is Wahhabi/Salafi jihadism. I think they see their differences with Al-Qaeda as being a matter of differences with the leadership not the ideology.
 
Any of these by Dr Madawi al Rasheed, who is a posh Saudi herself, but no apologist:
  • Demystifying the caliphate : historical memory and contemporary contexts 2013 ISBN 0199327955
  • A most masculine state : gender, politics and religion in Saudi Arabia, 2013 ISBN 052112252X
and on a less highbrow level you can see a lot about how Saudi society (between Saudis) actually works by watching the recent movie WADJDA.

that's a great film. :cool:

Qutb doesn't seem like a particularly nice character either to be fair, I looked him up on Wikipedia (yeah i know, sorry) and found he had written a book called 'our struggle against the Jews' :hmm: But would it be fair to say he was more concerned with political issues affecting Muslims rather than enforcing a particular brand of Islam? Knotted dialectician
 
Wasn't Qutb an influence on Al Zawahari (sp?) who was in turn a teacher or some such to Bin Laden? I think it was in that Curtis documentary, in one of Jason Burke's books and I've read it elsewhere.
 
Qutb was one of the founders of the MB. It seems plausible that he could have had some influence on later jihadi ideology.
 
Qutb was one of the founders of the MB. It seems plausible that he could have had some influence on later jihadi ideology.

Sure, there's overlap, but the MB and wahabi traditions are entirely different. I don't doubt that Qutb was misappropriated, in the same way that nazis misappropriated Nietzsche, but entirely different philosophical/methodological concerns. This is not to downplay Qutb's reactionary sentiment, mind...

Qutb and Nietzsche. Now there's a topic worth examining...
 
In a lot of the things I have read, Qutb is cited as having a major impact on jihadist ideology. Is this not the case then or has he been coopted by jihadists?

Also, is there a similar sort of jihadist tradition in countries like iran or influenced by shiism? Where do groups like Hezbollah get their ideas from, or are they less influenced by religious justifications for jihad? I don't really know anything about their ideas tbh. Knotted dialectician
 
I wouldn't say co-opted so much as divested of context. If you don't take the context of say, Milestones into account, it somewhat reads like a jihadist text avant la lettre.

As for the shia tradition, I'd say it's more a geopolitical than anything else. But this brings us back to the main point that Knotted was making. You can try to find ideological antecedents for the numerous proliferations of jihadist ideology but that really rather misses the point. In fact I think that sort of reductionism is really something inherited from the cold war — I even read one academic at university (antony black I think??) claiming that Qutb was a quasi-Leninist ffs.
 
Fair enough. Yeah i imagine it wouldnt be much different as the same justifications would be used (verses from the koran etc)
 
I'm really no expert on this, so don't take what I say as gospel. I think Qutb was proposing Islam as an alternative to Marxism, liberalism and scientific thought - not as an opposite or a reversion backwards but as the next phase in an evolving history. I don't think he was mainly interested in a particular branch of Islam or even about Muslims in general. His scope is broader, global. Non Muslims would benefit from Islamic rule according to his scheme. I'm not sure what influence Qutb had on Hezbollah, but I think he is considered important in Iran.

I think with Wahhabism it is more about purifying Muslim lands and an ultra sectarian (takfiri) outlook towards the rest of Islam (and for that matter other religions). I really don't know about Qutb's influence on Wahhabi/Salafi jihadists, but I can't see it being more than just an influence. Certainly not a wholesale adoption of Qutb's ideology.
 
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