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universal values?

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gnuneo

New Member
are there any built-in characteristics of Life from which a system of universal values can be based, allowing a truly scientific system of morality?

and what would both the characteristics, and the resulting system be?


my own take would be something modelled around "The Golden Rule", and recent game theory. With the assumption that a characteristic of Life is to expand, through cooperation and competition.

any other suggestions?
 
individual survival, survival of the gene, survival of the meme, survival of Life.

i agree. What values do you think that induces in humans? And could they be made into universal values?
 
what do you mean by universal values - inbuilt, as a result of biology?

values are learnt, i believe. there are good ones and bad ones. i think you can still have the survival impulse, but still be a thoroughly bad person. there are psychopaths in this world who get along just fine...
 
blagsta: the "Golden Rule" has a few forms, but its basic tenet is "Do not so unto others as you would not wish to have done to yourself".

Knotted: genes and memes are labels humans have attached to 'reality events', therefore they are inherently 'values' within themselves, - as well as (possibly) being a source of values. There seems clear evidence that certain genes are definite behavioural influences.

revol68: the impulse to survive is certainly at the genetic level. It would be extraordinary if this was not so.

greenfish: yes, along those lines. Robert Pirsig, in 'LILA', made a very good argument that there are discreet levels within each individual, and certainly there are biological drives. As well as social, intellectual drives.

in nature there also exists animals such as the Tasmanian Devil, that cannot stand another TD's company - they automatically fight when they meet, *except* come mating time. But Homo Sap is a *social* animal, and thus seems more likely to develop cooperative social codes. I am wondering if a system of universal values can be built upon those biological drives.

fridgmeagnet: umm, yes it is?

laptop: not in college, haven't been in education for 5 years or so. This is to stimulate discussion. :p
 
gnuneo said:
Knotted: genes and memes are labels humans have attached to 'reality events', therefore they are inherently 'values' within themselves,
Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense to me.

gnuneo said:
- as well as (possibly) being a source of values. There seems clear evidence that certain genes are definite behavioural influences.
Click to expand...

I don't think introducing memes or genes helps much. The argument is are (some) of our values innate? The question of how they corespond to genes is a debate to be had only after you have shown they are innate in the first place.

gnuneo said:
revol68: the impulse to survive is certainly at the genetic level. It would be extraordinary if this was not so.
Click to expand...

That's an impulse not a value though.

I'm pretty sure I don't follow the golden rule by the way. Why not treat different people differently to a degree?
 
Knotted said:
Quote Originally Posted by gnuneo
Knotted: genes and memes are labels humans have attached to 'reality events', therefore they are inherently 'values' within themselves,
Click to expand...

That doesn't make any sense to me.
Click to expand...

nor me on re-reading. :blush:

I don't think introducing memes or genes helps much. The argument is are (some) of our values innate? The question of how they corespond to genes is a debate to be had only after you have shown they are innate in the first place.
Click to expand...

actually, that's not *quite* the right question, imho. Another question could be, considering the *environment* that individuals grow up in, can there be innate responses to the various environmental possibilities?

are there behavioural norms that social Mammalian animals have in common, no matter how complex some systems? Are there a range of optimal, as well as lesser-optimal behavioural patterns for social Mammalian species? Can general principles be found from this?

revol68: the impulse to survive is certainly at the genetic level. It would be extraordinary if this was not so.

That's an impulse not a value though.
Click to expand...

if that is a basic "impulse", would you not find it extraordinary that this did not become a value at the advanced macro level consciousness?

I'm pretty sure I don't follow the golden rule by the way. Why not treat different people differently to a degree?
Click to expand...

that's why i said there are a number of interpretations. The basic premise is giving other people the same freedoms you would want yourself in their position.

"Your Freedom ends at the Tip of my Nose" is a visual representation of that.
 
gnuneo said:
are there any built-in characteristics of Life from which a system of universal values can be based...
Click to expand...
IMO no, as the only thing that inheres to life is the blueprint of life and the fact that such a blueprint will constantly develop to meet evolutionary challenges. How can you attach a universal system of values to an entity in flux?
...allowing a truly scientific system of morality?
Click to expand...
Your horse fell at the words "truly scientific". By what yardstick would your positivist goal be measured, and are such yardsticks ever value-free enough to give you a "truly" reliable result?
and what would both the characteristics, and the resulting system be?


my own take would be something modelled around "The Golden Rule", and recent game theory. With the assumption that a characteristic of Life is to expand, through cooperation and competition.

any other suggestions?
Click to expand...

That, as I said above, your system of values can't be truly universal because universality does not allow enough room for evolutionary development. Universality implies certain fixed values that evolutionary development of "life" may not conform to.
 
if that is a basic "impulse", would you not find it extraordinary that this did not become a value at the advanced macro level consciousness?
Click to expand...

yeah and in physics things of lower mass get attracted to things of higher mass, but it doesn't mean skinny people hook up with fat people as a law of the universe.

the reductionism in your argument is laughable.
 
There are so many exceptions to the 'impulse to survive' being a universal trait of all life, that there's no reason to make it a law like gravity.
 
Language and the desire to abstract thought? Let us hear an arguement against that one- and that arguement must not mention feral kids raised by wolves because they still have communication, but it is pack communication.
 
Why do you want to hear arguments against it? Language does seem to be 'universal'. How do you think it connects with what we call 'values'?
 
ViolentPanda said:
IMO no, as the only thing that inheres to life is the blueprint of life and the fact that such a blueprint will constantly develop to meet evolutionary challenges. How can you attach a universal system of values to an entity in flux?
Click to expand...

If you only knew anything about dialectics you would know that the only way there can be a "flux" there must be some underlying "subject-matter" that is "fluxing"... You can not even think flux without some substance. The minute you say/think "flux" you are thinking some "substance" and vice versa...

It's in our very grammar: "This is a tree!" contains a subject and predicate, universal and particular. This is what you have done in your sentence ["...an entity in flux"], where we state something about a subject-matter. I.e. there has to be a subject-matter [that which endures] and then various qualities etc. that we ascribe to it, which can change.

And from it - to my mind - the only common thing that we can devise is that all beings have the right to self-preservation, to "defend themselves"... That, after our understanding [or rather reasoning] about the substance and its predicates, is as "basic" as basic can get, to my mind...

The rest of your Q's are valid, of course, when it comes to "positivist" approach to these things...
 
N_igma said:
Yes survival of the gene.
Click to expand...

It really is amazing how this knee-jerk Darwinism springs to the forefront of people's minds with regard to almost every issue these days.

Obviously Darwinism cannot explain anything about human society or morality.

The interesting question however is why so many people think it can. We are approaching a situation in which Social Darwinism is the only acceptable explanatory thesis for the masses. That is the phenomenon to which we should be paying attention.
 
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