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Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (UCKG) in Brazil

What are you basing this on? I simply don’t recognise it

I see stuff like this pop up on my Facebook feed, posted by people who's politics and attitude toward poor people and immigrants, really belies the teaching I see in Matt chapters 5, 6, and 7.


















They've taken one verse from Corinthians 9:6 * and found a way to rake off some cash from it. Nevermind that verse is speaking about spiritual investment, not earthly investment.

* Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
 
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I see stuff like this pop up on my Facebook feed, posted by people who's politics and attitude toward poor people and immigrants, really belies the teaching I see in Matt chapters 5, 6, and 7.


















They've taken one verse from Corinthians 9:6 * and found a way to rake off some cash from it. Nevermind that verse is speaking about spiritual investment, not earthly investment.

* Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

No one here is denying that there are conmen and false preachers out there. They are a pox on society.

But your claim was that most Christians are this way. I’ve never met anyone like this myself. I think maybe FaceBook and YouTube are not good places to get an accurate representation of the wider world
 
No one here is denying that there are conmen and false preachers out there. They are a pox on society.

But your claim was that most Christians are this way. I’ve never met anyone like this myself. I think maybe FaceBook and YouTube are not good places to get an accurate representation of the wider world
I don't think that the fact you've met a few Christians in any way invalidates what Yuwipi Woman says
 
I don't think that the fact you've met a few Christians in any way invalidates what Yuwipi Woman says

“Met a few Christians” is grown up around Christians of many different denominations my entire life. But the point is that a claim here has been made that most Christians are either conmen or dupes of said conmen. The evidence still has not been presented.

I trust you don’t believe that most Muslims are terrorists or Jewish people misers. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that you extend the same common sense to all groups, including Christians
 
I dunno. Depends on what you call 'most' and what you call 'conmen'

You could argue all catholics are supporting the cons that the Holy see oversees.

They might not personally condone what certain elements of the church did but they do still support it
 
“Met a few Christians” is grown up around Christians of many different denominations my entire life. But the point is that a claim here has been made that most Christians are either conmen or dupes of said conmen. The evidence still has not been presented.

I trust you don’t believe that most Muslims are terrorists or Jewish people misers. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that you extend the same common sense to all groups, including Christians
I am firmly of the opinion that followers of Islam, Christianity and Judaism are dupes of conmen being as Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed were - I submit - conmen. This is I regret by no means a novel notion, as Georges Minois shows in his excellent book The Atheist's Bible. And they were followed by a long line of other chancers, grifters and - yes - other conmen
 
“Met a few Christians” is grown up around Christians of many different denominations my entire life. But the point is that a claim here has been made that most Christians are either conmen or dupes of said conmen. The evidence still has not been presented.

I trust you don’t believe that most Muslims are terrorists or Jewish people misers. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that you extend the same common sense to all groups, including Christians
Some of my best friends are Christians, ok, but they are pretty strange people. They fall for TV evangelists on one side, or the Pope and the catholic child abuse machine, or are nice a respectable CofE types like Theresa May and overflowing with Christian hypocrisy. I’m sure there are nice Christians, but, if there was a god, one would have thought he’d be more protective of his brand.
 
No one here is denying that there are conmen and false preachers out there. They are a pox on society.

But your claim was that most Christians are this way. I’ve never met anyone like this myself.

neither have i, and i don't know where you're from, but yuwipi woman and i live in very different demographic zones in the states, and you may live in a third different one. everyone i knew was catholic or jewish growing up and still are probably together the majority of my neighborhood, and the sort of messages in those videos was unknown to me then and still is, in the sense that i don't consume it or believe it and know no-one who does. otoh i have some connection with north carolina and the sort of religiosity on display in those videos is widespread there, and is dominant to the point of exclusivity in other parts of the country.
 
The best aspects for me are the incredible and moving tales of christian outreach/inspiration turning people with troubled lives and desperate circumstances around; rather than the preaching/moralising/berating aspect. I don't pretend that this makes it any more true or valid though. I do like the 'nobody is beyond/without hope' aspect. Though I'm sure many people would disagree there as well.
 
Some of my best friends are Christians, ok, but they are pretty strange people. They fall for TV evangelists on one side, or the Pope and the catholic child abuse machine, or are nice a respectable CofE types like Theresa May and overflowing with Christian hypocrisy. I’m sure there are nice Christians, but, if there was a god, one would have thought he’d be more protective of his brand.

The most time I ever spent around Christians was when I worked at Campaign Against Arms Trade.

There are lots of decent Christians involved in the peace movement(s). Some are liberal, many are radical and deeply committed to real political change.

I am also aware of radical Christians abroad, such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and some in Latin America that friends from there have told me about. Oh, and obviously, Martin Luther King was Christian as were many other activists in the US civil rights movement.

I've also met plenty of shitty Christians of course, but like any large group of people they are a diverse lot.
 
“Met a few Christians” is grown up around Christians of many different denominations my entire life. But the point is that a claim here has been made that most Christians are either conmen or dupes of said conmen. The evidence still has not been presented.

I trust you don’t believe that most Muslims are terrorists or Jewish people misers. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that you extend the same common sense to all groups, including Christians

I have as well. I've lived most of my life in the bible belt of the US. Went to bible school in the summers. Learned bible verses by heart (or else). Most of my social media feed is conservative Christians with a few Catholics thrown in for good measure. One conclusion that I've come to is that the more they wear Jesus on their sleeve, the greater the chance they will post some meme suggesting pretty awful agendas. When I first moved to the city, I tried attending a church in town. I wasn't impressed and stopped going. A few years later I heard about the murder of a trans man named Brandon Tina, (dead name Tina Brandon). Brandon Tina had attended that church and gone to the pastor for private counselling. The next Sunday, he was outed to the entire congregation, who publicly shamed him. Brandon Tina was so devastated by this that he moved out of the city to Humbolt, Nebraska. He was raped and murdered there in December of 1993. I've gone to the same church a couple of times for funerals and each time have been treated to some pretty horrific theology. I never met Brandon Tina, but I'm fully aware of what kind of hate they brought to bear. Can you really tell me that this is unusual for a conservative church in America?

And then there's this gem of a human being:

In early July, the Rev. Rhéal Forest delivered a sermon at St. Emile Catholic Church in Winnipeg, Manitoba, about Canada’s residential schools, which had been sites of violence and sexual abuse toward Indigenous children for more than a century.

“Fake news,” Forest said about reports that the system inflicted psychological, physical and sexual abuse on the 150,000 children who attended the church-run boarding schools set up to assimilate them into European culture.

He asserted that Indigenous children enjoyed being at the residential schools and said that survivors of sexual abuse at the schools lied about it to receive settlement money from the Canadian government, which has paid $3 billion to 28,000 victims, according to the Canadian Broadcast Corp.

“If they wanted extra money, from the money that was given to them, they had to lie sometimes — lie that they were abused sexually and, oop, another $50,000,” Forest said during a video-recorded sermon that was removed from Facebook but reposted by the CBC.

“So it’s kind of hard if you’re poor not to lie,” he added....

.... During a sermon on July 18, Forest said he passed a church that had been vandalized with the words “Save the children,” the CBC reported.

“As I’m passing by, thoughts of anger. If I had a shotgun at night and I’d see them, I’d go, ‘Boom!’ just to scare them and if they don’t run away, I’ll shoot them,” Forest said of the vandals, according to the CBC.

He backtracked, saying that would be “bad” and “would not help,” and then blamed the media for prompting vandals to target churches by reporting on the atrocities of residential schools.


Anyone who knows anyone who survived these schools (and Canada isn't alone), knows that they didn't make it up.
 
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And then there's the horrific abuse that women and children suffered while under the "guidance" and "protection" of the RCC in Ireland.

Obviously, not all religious folk are monsters/liars/sadists etc. None of this self's religious pals are. And those that espoused upsetting and intolerant views, just don't associate with/talk to, anymore.
 
Some of the things that I have a problem with Christians is that they think their teaching isn't indoctrination in the way that all con men sell their con to the gullible, vulnerable or young. Also the idea that they somehow hold some kind of monopoly of moral behaviour at a higher standard than non believers. Also the proving how pious one is, usually in the context of ritual, which always seems very competitive and hierarchical.
 
Hillsong is a religious franchise targetting a different demographic from UCKG but equally manipulative and mired in abuse and with some very influential supporters. The documentary below is overlong but gives an insight into the organisation and also some of the very decent people it attracts and exploits.


Storyville - Hillsong Church: God Goes Viral
 
No one here is denying that there are conmen and false preachers out there. They are a pox on society.

But your claim was that most Christians are this way. I’ve never met anyone like this myself. I think maybe FaceBook and YouTube are not good places to get an accurate representation of the wider world
No but life and experience is, I'm with yuwipi woman on this,
 
I have to go with "most" here. Sorry to all the real Christians out there, but your friends are making you look bad.

Do you know people who are Christian? I mean the regular quiet ones that just get on with their lives and dont broadcast their faith or try to prosletise anyone?

Many Chtistians are not into proclaiming their faith or preaching. Many dont go round pushing ideas or the old testament or new testament or whatever etc.
Many just live their lives with a personal faith and try to live a "Christian" life by helping whoever they can without making much noise about it.
 
Some of my best friends are Christians, ok, but they are pretty strange people. They fall for TV evangelists on one side, or the Pope and the catholic child abuse machine, or are nice a respectable CofE types like Theresa May and overflowing with Christian hypocrisy. I’m sure there are nice Christians, but, if there was a god, one would have thought he’d be more protective of his brand.


People are people.
Humans are humans.
Expecting any person to be a saint because they believe in god is like expecting any person who believes in the devil to be a murdering bastard.....

There's a whole bell curve there...
 
I have as well. I've lived most of my life in the bible belt of the US. Went to bible school in the summers. Learned bible verses by heart (or else). Most of my social media feed is conservative Christians with a few Catholics thrown in for good measure. One conclusion that I've come to is that the more they wear Jesus on their sleeve, the greater the chance they will post some meme suggesting pretty awful agendas. When I first moved to the city, I tried attending a church in town. I wasn't impressed and stopped going. A few years later I heard about the murder of a trans man named Brandon Tina, (dead name Tina Brandon). Brandon Tina had attended that church and gone to the pastor for private counselling. The next Sunday, he was outed to the entire congregation, who publicly shamed him. Brandon Tina was so devastated by this that he moved out of the city to Humbolt, Nebraska. He was raped and murdered there in December of 1993. I've gone to the same church a couple of times for funerals and each time have been treated to some pretty horrific theology. I never met Brandon Tina, but I'm fully aware of what kind of hate they brought to bear. Can you really tell me that this is unusual for a conservative church in America?

And then there's this gem of a human being:




Anyone who knows anyone who survived these schools (and Canada isn't alone), knows that they didn't make it up.

I can see why you might have a negative opinion of Christians given those experiences. If I was there with you I would have let them know how un-Christlike they were being. Hopefully you’ll come across some better ones than those you’ve encountered so far
 
I stand enlightened. But isn't the Protestant v Catholic thing a bit of a stumbling block?
Why would it be a stumbling block? Catholicism may have been the religion of the status quo, but Protestant groups present themselves as an alternative with a new message, which is what new religions always do. Protestantism, after all, emerged as a protest against Catholicism in Europe, and did very well.

Modern-day Brazil is about 25% Evangelical/Pentacostalist Evangelical and about 58% Roman Catholic, and there are plenty of other religious groups, including religions of African origin there too. I know several amongst the London Brazilian diaspora who are Spiritists. They rent our Quaker Meeting House for much of the week and have more members than we do. There are also indigenous Shamanist groups
 
I have as well. I've lived most of my life in the bible belt of the US. Went to bible school in the summers. Learned bible verses by heart (or else). Most of my social media feed is conservative Christians with a few Catholics thrown in for good measure. One conclusion that I've come to is that the more they wear Jesus on their sleeve, the greater the chance they will post some meme suggesting pretty awful agendas. When I first moved to the city, I tried attending a church in town. I wasn't impressed and stopped going. A few years later I heard about the murder of a trans man named Brandon Tina, (dead name Tina Brandon). Brandon Tina had attended that church and gone to the pastor for private counselling. The next Sunday, he was outed to the entire congregation, who publicly shamed him. Brandon Tina was so devastated by this that he moved out of the city to Humbolt, Nebraska. He was raped and murdered there in December of 1993. I've gone to the same church a couple of times for funerals and each time have been treated to some pretty horrific theology. I never met Brandon Tina, but I'm fully aware of what kind of hate they brought to bear. Can you really tell me that this is unusual for a conservative church in America?

And then there's this gem of a human being:




Anyone who knows anyone who survived these schools (and Canada isn't alone), knows that they didn't make it up.

Horrible.
Bigots and bastards are everywhere. They're in churches and temples, mosques and meeting halls. They're in governments and business and homes.

People have the potential to be bigoted and horrible.
People also have the potantial to be extraordinarily kind and caring.
The fact that someone subscribes / belongs to a club (religious or otherwise) is not going to alter their potential.

And no...that is not an excuse.
 
Hillsong is a religious franchise targetting a different demographic from UCKG but equally manipulative and mired in abuse and with some very influential supporters. The documentary below is overlong but gives an insight into the organisation and also some of the very decent people it attracts and exploits.


Storyville - Hillsong Church: God Goes Viral

I watched that the other day, the couple who set-up Hillsong in Australia seemed to have done it for genuine reasons, but having visited the US and seen how it's done there, decided to go for the money, and become a global corporation 'church', and are now raking it in.

The senior & middle management seem to live in luxury, whilst the real workers are underpaid, or largely p/t unpaid volunteers, who also have to donate 10% of their income from paid employment.

150,000 members producing a tax-free income of £150m a year, nothing short of scammers.
 
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