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UK photographers: the law and your rights: discussion

More photography laws?

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It is private land. They're within their rights to request people not take photographs on their property. :(

What bugs me is

* there are no signs stating that this is their policy (they do have notices around the site banning skateboarding, etc.)

* I've been here before about three years ago. I was told by security to stop taking photographs outside the GLA building. On that occasion I received an apology from More London Estates and was told that it shouldn't happen again as their policy of requiring a permit only applied to commercial photography.

* Only yesterday I was merely asked by a security guard what my purpose was and then he told me it was perfectly OK and let me carry on - about thirty yards from where I was stopped today. Same camera, same me.

* they have a clear policy (no photography, personal & non-commercial included, without a permit - the Estate Office confirmed this this afternoon) that is then apparently enforced very inconsistently. If it were enforced consistently it would expose the ludicrousness of the situation if tens of thousands of tourists were stopped taking pictures.

* the GLA building is slap bang in the middle of the development. It should be a public building in a public place. It's the seat of London's democracy. However, it's leased by the GLA from More London Estates Ltd and they can't do anything about the situation (what I was told by the GLA before).

* if you don't want people taking photos of your buildings, don't hire Norman Foster to design them and put them next to one of the most famous bridges in the world

I've got the email address of the relevant person at the estate office and I'll be getting in touch when she's back from holiday next week.

:mad:
 
Bizarre how everyone finds the constant harassment of anyone with an SLR ludicrous and laughable (even Mariella and Andrew Marr) when everyone has a camera in their phone but still the police do it over and over again.
 
I watched an interesting video the other week, where a bloke was filming the police, they came over and told him he couldn't. He challenged this, and asked them what law this was under. They went away with their tails between their legs.

There is NO law which stops for from filming or taking pictures in public. IIRC, you have to be suspected of terrorism related offences before this comes into play. I would dog out the video, but it's freeman related stuff, so it won't be well recieved.

Edit- Fuck it, I've found it so I'll put it up. Skip to 6 minutes, if you want to go past the freemanontheland stuff The police do not know their own "laws".
 
cybertect said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/warning-do-not-take-this-picture-1833127.html
Click to expand...
Craig Mackey, who speaks for the Association of Chief Police Officers on stop-and-search legislation, said he does have sympathy for photographers, but said that part of the problem was that some officers were not aware how best to use the "complex" legislation. He said: "It goes back to the issue of briefing and training of staff and making sure they are clear around the legislation we are asking them to use. There is no power under Section 44 to stop people taking photographs and we are very clear about getting that message out to forces."
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's time they got very clear about consequences for ignoring that message.
 
I seen on BBC news 24 last night (The Papers) fount page of The Independent.

Is there an argument that a down turn that tourists come to London to see land marks.
 
They were just talking about this on R4's Today programme (Friday, 4 December), from about 8:45-ish (I missed the start when I was putting cream cheese on my bagel in the kitchen) to 08:57.

They had a photographer and a copper on.

Photographer was saying that he'd been stopped and gave his details and was objecting to his details now being on a database. He said the police attitude towards him was fairly okay, but then he'd complied and given his details. He referred to anecdotal evidence that the police attitude towards other photographers depends on whether they comply or try to assert their rights.

Copper of course said that briefings had gone out earlier in the year but acknowledge there was perhaps a need for a reminder.
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
They were just talking about this on R4's Today programme (Friday, 4 December), from about 8:45-ish (I missed the start when I was putting cream cheese on my bagel in the kitchen) to 08:57.

They had a photographer and a copper on.
Click to expand...

Was interesting I thought...

Sounded like the age old thing that some policemen approach these situations sensibly and others do not.
 
This is the message circulated by Andy Trotter, of the Association of Chief Police Officers, to police forces in England and Wales.

"Officers and PCSOs are reminded that we should not be stopping and searching people for taking photos. There are very clear rules around how stop-and-search powers can be used. However, there are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so. We need to co-operate with the media and amateur photographers. They play a vital role as their images help us identify criminals. We must acknowledge that citizen journalism is a feature of modern life and police officers are now photographed and filmed more than ever. However, unnecessarily restricting photography, whether from the casual tourist or professional is unacceptable and worse still, it undermines public confidence in the police service."
Click to expand...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hotographers-and-antiterror-laws-1834626.html
 
Award-winning photographer stopped after photographing bank building

'He asked what I was doing, and I just told him that I was taking pictures and didn't have to tell him anything at all,' says Smith. At that point, a second security officer came up to Smith and asked for his personal details, which the photographer refused to provide, at which point the guards called the police

Three police cars and one vans arrived on the scene with up to six armed police officers detaining the photographer. 'They were responding to an incident involving a male at reception who refused to leave, which was not true,' Smith tells BJP.

'I failed the [police] attitude test,' he says. 'I thought the pressure was off after last week's events. I even showed one police officer the front page of The Independent, and he told that he had seen it but that "we can still stop you under Section 44".'

To prevent being searched by the police officer, the photographer was forced to give his personal details. He received a stop and account form and was let go.
Click to expand...

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=871742
 
You can print out your own copy of the letter sent to all Chief Constables and keep it in your bag ....... thanks to Amateur photographer for this one

www.amateurphotographer.co.uk

This is a copy of a letter sent by the Association of Chief Police Officers to Chief Constables and Commissioners across England and Wales over the weekend:

4 December 2009


To: all Chief Constables and Commissioners

Dear Colleague

Section 44 Terrorism Act and Photography

Adverse media coverage of the police service use of Section 44 powers, when dealing with issues relating to photography, have recently hit the headlines again and suggests that officers continue to misuse the legislation that is available to them. The evidence also suggests that there is confusion over the recording requirements of 'Stop and Account' and the actual police powers of 'Stop and Search'. The purpose of this letter is to clarify the legislation and guidance in relation to these matters.

Stop and Search
Section 44 gives officers no specific powers in relation to photography and there is no provision in law for the confiscation of equipment or the destruction of images, either digital or on film.

On the rare occasion where an officer suspects that an individual is taking photographs as part of target reconnaissance for terrorist purposes, then they should be treated as a terrorist suspect and dealt with under Section 43 of the Act. This would ensure that the legal power exists to seize equipment and recover images taken. Section 58A Counter Terrorism Act 2008 provides powers to cover instances where photographs are being taken of police officers who are, or who have been, employed at the front line of counter terrorism operations.

These scenarios will be exceptionally rare events and do not cover instances of photography by rail enthusiasts, tourists or the media.

The ACPO/NPIA Practice Advice, published in December 2008, is again included with this letter and specifically covers the issues surrounding photography. The guidance also includes the need for clear briefings on the use of Section 44 and it may be appropriate to include photography issues within those briefings.

Stop and Account
Encounters between police officers and PCSOs and the public range from general conversation through to arrest. Officers need to be absolutely clear that no record needs to be submitted to cover any activity that merely constitutes a conversation.

Only at the point where a member of the public is asked to account for their actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of an item, do the provisions of the PACE Act apply and a record for that 'stop and account' need to be submitted. Even at that point, such a discussion does not constitute the use of any police power and should not be recorded under the auspices of the Terrorism Act, for example.

Officers should be reminded that it is not an offence for a member of the public or journalist to take photographs of a public building and use of cameras by the public does not ordinarily permit use of stop and search powers.


Yours sincerely


Andrew Trotter OBE QPM
Chief Constable
Head of ACPO Media Advisory Group

Craig Mackey QPM
Stop and Search
Equality, Diversity and Human Rights Business Area
 
Nothing to hide, nothing to fear:

We all happily accept the occasional questioning at airport checkouts and I don't see a great deal of difference when photographing potential terrorist targets. [...] The public maybe need to be a bit more co-operative. Explaining your rights or refusing to give your details won't placate the Police Officer, it'll make them think you're hiding something. Give them your address, it won't hurt and pictures can be retrieved from your card at home."
Click to expand...

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Thoughts-on-the-new-guidelines-on-antiterror-law-use-12658
 
"On Sunday an NUJ member was arrested by two armed police officers at London City Airport for an alleged assault on a member of airport security. The photographer fully denies any wrongdoing and the NUJ has instructed lawyers to defend him. The photographer had been covering a small and peaceful protest by environmental campaigners in Santa outfits at the airport. He was arrested in the middle of filing pictures to national newspapers."

http://www.nuj.org.uk/innerPagenuj.html?docid=1439
 
http://hub.the-aop.org/

Dont know if you've seen this one already, but Grant Smith, former chairman of the Association of Photographers was 'Briefly Detained' for photographing a central london church on the 8th.
 
An amateur photographer was arrested at lunchtime 10 12 09 while taking photographs of posters on a building in Hounslow, west London. Photography enthusiast Karol Berezowski, originally from Poland, said officers handcuffed him, before taking him by car to Hounslow Police Station where he was held for three hours. The incident took place at 11.50am on Hounslow High Street. Speaking to Amateur Photographer. shortly after being released from police custody, Berezowski said he was charged with a public order offence after ‘refusing to take his hands out of his pockets’ when police searched him.

Police said they will not release details of the incident ahead of a possible court hearing. Berezowski said that officers originally told him he would be searched under anti-terrorism laws. Berezowski, who works as a ‘building service engineer’, said that the reason police charged him was ‘abusive’ behaviour, which he denies.

The photographer, who has lived in London for three years, has told Amateur Photographer that he was photographing posters on buildings at the end of Hounslow High Street. He had been using a classic Leica M6 film camera and claims to have been taking pictures for his portfolio.

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that a man was arrested today 10 12 09 for a ‘Section 5′ Public Order Offence, at 11.50am, but a spokesman refused to comment further for legal reasons. The amateur photographer said he has been issued with an £80 fine but is currently seeking legal representation because he plans to take the case to court. Hounslow Police Station declined to comment when contacted by Amateur Photographer.
 
e19896 said:
Berezowski said he was charged with a public order offence after ‘refusing to take his hands out of his pockets’ when police searched him.

...

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that a man was arrested today 10 12 09 for a ‘Section 5′ Public Order Offence, at 11.50am
Click to expand...

Public Order Act 1986 said:
5 Harassment, alarm or distress

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.
Click to expand...

Keeping both your hands in your pockets while talking to someone is the most serious insult imaginable in Poland. It means that your mother didn't know which of her two lovers is your father.

The police officers knew this as they're all trained to be multiculturally aware these days.

Obviously. Or something. :rolleyes:
 
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