UK photographers: the law and your rights: discussion

[detective-boy]

Of course terrorist would be too dim to find a map of the place on the internet wouldn't they

Because a map is exactly the same as photographs, isn't it?

And a particular photograph is exactly the same as any other photograph taken from another position, or at another time ...

 

[detective-boy]

You go to a demo and you always see some fucker with no numbers on and a big fuck off camera in your face.

Camera operators are frequently civilian police staff ... so the absence of numbers may be nothing untoward (as they don't have any).

 

[Kaka Tim]

I remember seeing the Met give a kicking to some guy who photographed them giving some other people a kicking during a demonstration the night the Iraq war began - must have been some sensitive government building or child's playground in the background somewhere.

But did they give him a reciept for his kicking afterwards?

During the anti-war demos I always took close up shots of the cops with cameras and told them I was putting them on the internet. They didn't like it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

On the other hand there's no need to have people running around making photographs which could help terrorists or annoy ordinary people going about their business. A license or a register of photographers and their whereabouts would help bring some accountability where it's needed and verify them when buying specialist equipment or being questioned by the police.

Wind-up, right?

The police better remove all those postcards of London, sharpish.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Camera operators are frequently civilian police staff ... so the absence of numbers may be nothing untoward (as they don't have any).

At the G8 Gleneagles demo there were lots of police with no numbers stood around. Curiously none would answer the question as to why this was so.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Camera operators are frequently civilian police staff ... so the absence of numbers may be nothing untoward (as they don't have any).

Both times I've had a severe kicking from the police (one of which was for simply asking why there were arresting my mate after he had been taking photos of them), none of them had numbers visable.

And if you tell me fully kitted up riot squads are civilian staff, well, I'm fairly sure you can guess my reaction

Coppers hiding their numbers on demos is so regularly seen I can only conclude it's official policy, for reasons that are obvious.

 

[Calibre]

I can't believe I've never been picked up by the police for taking photos considering some of the stuff I've done, sometimes in plain view of a policeman

 

[Stanley Edwards]

That isn't the point though, is it? It's not a matter of whether your rights have changed, but whether you're likely to get more hassle whilst going about your lawful business than you used to. And in the case of the railways, you almost certainly are.

The fact that we are a country at war will always have some effect on your day to day freedoms. I appreciate that few people accept war as anything other than a TV screen phenomenon these days, but that doesn't make any potential retaliation less real.

I also realise that new anti-terror legislation (and old laws) can be abused and that many jobs worths will make the most of any chance to enforce their own bit of 'power'.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Such as?

Just one purely hypothetical example...

Say a family have been re-homed in a new location after receiving death threats during a court case. They even have new identities and have told no-one about their history.

Extreme example, but still a valid one. There are plenty of other good reasons.

 

[Roadkill]

The fact that we are a country at war will always have some effect on your day to day freedoms. I appreciate that few people accept war as anything other than a TV screen phenomenon these days, but that doesn't make any potential retaliation less real.

I also realise that new anti-terror legislation (and old laws) can be abused and that many jobs worths will make the most of any chance to enforce their own bit of 'power'.

We're not 'at war,' unless you're stupid enough the rhetoric surrounding TWAT.

But even if we were, the point I was making was that it's irrelevant that your legal right to take pictures hasn't changed, when there is so much more willingness about on the part of the police and various other assorted jobsworths to hassle you for doing so. You don't appear to disagree...?

 

[Dan U]

I'd be very surprised if he told he he does that for more than about 5%* of those he initially sees taking photos ...

(ETA: * - dependant on the subject - a lot higher for non-touristy things like electricity sub-stations!)

yeah i don't think it happens a lot, but it does happen.

 

[detective-boy]

Coppers hiding their numbers on demos is so regularly seen I can only conclude it's official policy, for reasons that are obvious.

It is anything but. Which is why vehicles, helmets and God knows what else are now marked with identification numbers, why they have sewn in numbers, etc.

If you see officers without numbers, go and find a senior officer (usually have orange or other coloured epaulettes on public order overalls), away from the current trouble, and make an official complaint. Repeat that formally later, including details of the senior officer and any action they took / didn't take. Accompany it with photographs.

I have to say that these allegations that officers routinely have no numbers do not accord at all with my recollection of disorder situations when I was serving and I cannot think that they have fallen back. There certainly were widespread instances from the 80s, but not more recently.

 

[weltweit]

If I were going to do a lot of photography in London I would probably get a photo ID Card made up for me listing me and my local camera club. It might help to calm things down to produce some identification like that.

 

[Chuff]

I voted for more laws, anyone taking a photo of me should have written permission beforehand, this espically refers to traffic and close circuit cameras.

Luckily nowdays you can video a kicking and upload it straight to the internet perventing the old shit kick and camera steal bollocks.

 

[longdog]

Because a map is exactly the same as photographs, isn't it?

And a particular photograph is exactly the same as any other photograph taken from another position, or at another time ...

Way to totally miss the point

 

[longdog]

It is anything but. Which is why vehicles, helmets and God knows what else are now marked with identification numbers, why they have sewn in numbers, etc.

If you see officers without numbers, go and find a senior officer (usually have orange or other coloured epaulettes on public order overalls), away from the current trouble, and make an official complaint. Repeat that formally later, including details of the senior officer and any action they took / didn't take. Accompany it with photographs.

I have to say that these allegations that officers routinely have no numbers do not accord at all with my recollection of disorder situations when I was serving and I cannot think that they have fallen back. There certainly were widespread instances from the 80s, but not more recently.

Can I come and live in your world?

The police there sound so nice

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It is anything but. Which is why vehicles, helmets and God knows what else are now marked with identification numbers, why they have sewn in numbers, etc.

If you see officers without numbers, go and find a senior officer (usually have orange or other coloured epaulettes on public order overalls), away from the current trouble, and make an official complaint. Repeat that formally later, including details of the senior officer and any action they took / didn't take. Accompany it with photographs.

I have to say that these allegations that officers routinely have no numbers do not accord at all with my recollection of disorder situations when I was serving and I cannot think that they have fallen back. There certainly were widespread instances from the 80s, but not more recently.

The last person i saw who tried this, a marked legal observer (can't remember the action but it was within the last 5 years or so) was threatened with arrest, pushed violently back towards the police lines and disappeared into the morass. Cops remove their numbers every time it gets tasty, i don't know why you try and pretend that it's not the case.

 

[longdog]

Cops remove their numbers every time it gets tasty, i don't know why you try and pretend that it's not the case.

Because in his world the police are always doing what they are supposed to be doing and civilians are always doing what they shouldn't

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Because in his world the police are always doing what they are supposed to be doing and civilians are always doing what they shouldn't

Bart: Take him away, boys.
Chief Wiggum: Hey, I'm the Police Chief here. Bake him away, toys.
Lou: What was that, chief?
Chief Wiggum: Do what the kid says.

 

[Blagsta]

The fact that we are a country at war will always have some effect on your day to day freedoms. I appreciate that few people accept war as anything other than a TV screen phenomenon these days, but that doesn't make any potential retaliation less real.

I also realise that new anti-terror legislation (and old laws) can be abused and that many jobs worths will make the most of any chance to enforce their own bit of 'power'.

Who the fuck are we at war with?

 

[bluestreak]

The last person i saw who tried this, a marked legal observer (can't remember the action but it was within the last 5 years or so) was threatened with arrest, pushed violently back towards the police lines and disappeared into the morass. Cops remove their numbers every time it gets tasty, i don't know why you try and pretend that it's not the case.

Yeah, I'd expect anyone pulling that sort of shit to be the first in the back of the van. IIRC protestors asking comlpicated questions to cops comes under "threatening behaviour"

 

[Pip]

Just one purely hypothetical example...

Say a family have been re-homed in a new location after receiving death threats during a court case. They even have new identities and have told no-one about their history.

Extreme example, but still a valid one. There are plenty of other good reasons.

Don't make me laugh!
Any less extreme examples?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If you see officers without numbers, go and find a senior officer (usually have orange or other coloured epaulettes on public order overalls), away from the current trouble, and make an official complaint. Repeat that formally later, including details of the senior officer and any action they took / didn't take. Accompany it with photographs

Do you have any idea what would actually happen if you tried this?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Unfortunately sometimes (and I would very strongly suspect it is a tiny minority of times) officers overreact and we get stories like this. In the vast majority of cases sensible officers either watch for a while and dispel their suspicions without even approaching the people concerned or, at worst, go and have a brief chat and resolve things without any need to take things any further, seize cameras or whatever.

it's not a minority of times it's becoming alarming frequent particularlly since the wooden top community officers have got a bee in their bonnet...

going over and harrassing a member of the public doing nothing illegal is still intimidation by police and is still an over reaction to the situation...

what photographs did they recover from the tube bombers which would allow them to make any form of assesment of their intended target?

Or the WTC? or Madrid? Bali? etc etc etc...

repeating the lies doens't make them more vaild...

thus far no photographs have been recoved of any of the 'new wave of terror' attacks...

 

[Firky]

It is anything but. Which is why vehicles, helmets and God knows what else are now marked with identification numbers, why they have sewn in numbers, etc.

If you see officers without numbers, go and find a senior officer (usually have orange or other coloured epaulettes on public order overalls), away from the current trouble, and make an official complaint. Repeat that formally later, including details of the senior officer and any action they took / didn't take. Accompany it with photographs.

I have to say that these allegations that officers routinely have no numbers do not accord at all with my recollection of disorder situations when I was serving and I cannot think that they have fallen back. There certainly were widespread instances from the 80s, but not more recently.

Yeah right, like they're going to let me anywhere near a senior officer to make a complaint in the first place

 

[fela fan]

Stories like this just paint a picture of an increasingly paranoid nation.

There are over five million state cameras photographing the public, yet the public cannot be sure of wrongful harrassment by agents of the state making up bullshit and then stealing film.

What a sad indictment of a once-free nation.

Mind you i could be wrong, many britons seem to think this added security is better than freedom.

Oh well.

State: we will photograph you, and we will regulate your freedom to photograph anything. We can accuse you of children photography or terrorist-planning photography and on that basis we're gonna stick our fucking faces right up into your life.

Paranoid.

 

[fela fan]

If I were going to do a lot of photography in London I would probably get a photo ID Card made up for me listing me and my local camera club. It might help to calm things down to produce some identification like that.

There must be millions of camera-touting tourists in london.

It's feeling the need to do stuff like this that seriously attacks basic freedoms to live one's life free from interference by the paranoid state.

 

[fogbat]

Stories like this just paint a picture of an increasingly paranoid nation.

There are over five million state cameras photographing the public, yet the public cannot be sure of wrongful harrassment by agents of the state making up bullshit and then stealing film.

What a sad indictment of a once-free nation.

Mind you i could be wrong, many britons seem to think this added security is better than freedom.

Oh well.

State: we will photograph you, and we will regulate your freedom to photograph anything. We can accuse you of children photography or terrorist-planning photography and on that basis we're gonna stick our fucking faces right up into your life.

Paranoid.

Moving to Thailand's the only option

 

[fela fan]

Moving to Thailand's the only option

Well, it was a different, freer country in britain when i did do the move: coming on for 20 years ago now.

I know i'm not living there, but in my estimation somewhere a bad turning was taken. That turning was trading freedom for the illusion of security. And this a country that dealt with the NI terrorism problem stoutly for ages.

Now it's just plain paranoid.

Thailand'll get there one year, unless capitalism takes a turning itself. I just hope it's not in the foreseeable future.

 

[fela fan]

Moving to Thailand's the only option

If you knock out the words 'to thailand', you're probably about right though!

Mental madness it's becoming.