Thoughts on Libertarianism

[Serene]

Liberty-ism. Libertarians seek freedom in all aspects of life, and seek to enjoy emancipation, cooperation and conviviality among likeminded citizens. There is no higher authority than these communities of resistance, not the state, not political parties or unions, just groups of free spirited free thinkers mutually supporting one another.

You need law. Crime has to be punished or it really would be anarchy. Libertarianism isnt full on in that sense. I think they wish for there to be laws and courts, or do they??

 

[Serene]

Liberty-ism. Libertarians seek freedom in all aspects of life, and seek to enjoy emancipation, cooperation and conviviality among likeminded citizens. There is no higher authority than these communities of resistance, not the state, not political parties or unions, just groups of free spirited free thinkers mutually supporting one another.

The next question is how does this enrich peoples lives more than how things are currently in society. What is it in this way of life that makes things better for the individual?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The individual / social anarchism distinction might be relevant. Right wing libertarianism likely has have much in common with followers of individual anarchism. Even though this distinction stems from the left.

Dunno. Every time I encounter a US-style right-libertarian, they seem unable to understand certain basics about how societies work and how they got to be in their current position in their society. It's incoherent as a political ideology as it fails to acknowledge the need for power structures to maintain the wealth inequality that its followers all seem to want.

Selfish wankers at heart. Has very little to do with any anarchism that I would recognise as of the left.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yeah. Theoretically, anarchists and neoliberals have that in common.

(neo)Liberalism requires a strong state, the state is needed to assist capital in the class war.
In fact capitalism arose in England precisely because the the strong state made it possible to move to economic exploitation, as opposed to France where the state was divided and extra-economic exploitation was used for much longer.

 

[RedRedRose]

How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears

This has some interesting reflections. A small town is highjacked by right-wing libertarians who essentially run the town into the ground and in so doing spike the levels of crime and dangerous wildlife.

The author denotes that a lot of these types are socially and individually responsible people, but have some kind of cognitive dissonance in applying this worldview politically. I can only assume this is a paradigm peculiar to American history.

 

[Serene]

How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears

This has some interesting reflections. A small town is highjacked by right-wing libertarians who essentially run the town into the ground and in so doing spike the levels of crime and dangerous wildlife.

The author denotes that a lot of these types are socially and individually responsible people, but have some kind of cognitive dissonance in applying this worldview politically. I can only assume this is a paradigm peculiar to American history.

In my ignorance I am wondering how they ran the town into the ground. What is it specifically about Libertarianism that did this? I am trying to understand it.

 

[Serene]

This from google

What does a Libertarian believe in?


Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and political freedom, and minimize the state's encroachment on and violations of individual liberties; emphasizing pluralism, cosmopolitanism, cooperation, civil and political rights, bodily autonomy, free association, free trade, freedom of expression, freedom of choice, freedom ...

 

[Serene]

This also from google

Are Libertarians left or right?


Libertarianism is often thought of as 'right-wing' doctrine. This, however, is mistaken for at least two reasons. First, on social—rather than economic—issues, libertarianism tends to be 'left-wing'.

 

[Serene]

It soon becomes clear how Libertarianism can be very confusing to someone who knows little about it, such as myself.

 

[Serene]

This from google

What is a Libertarian in simple terms?


Libertarianism is a kind of politics that says the government should have less control over people's lives. It is based on the idea of maximum liberty. Libertarians believe that it is usually better to give people more free choice.

 

[Serene]

This also from google




What is another word for libertarian?

humanitarian	liberal
reformist	broad-minded
humanistic	latitudinarian
permissive	freethinking
liberalistic	forward-thinking

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Right wing libertarians believe in property and the power of money. So it's a liberty for those who already possess. The rest can get lost.
Left wing libertarians? Property is theft. (With a host of provisos ).

 

[ska invita]

putting disagreements anyone may have aside as to what goes where on the map its a useful way of understanding the degrees of libertarianism




lots of comments/discussion on the above image here

 

[Serene]

I will read this later today after my chores ty.

 

[Serene]

View attachment 346237


putting disagreements anyone may have aside as to what goes where on the map its a useful way of understanding the degrees of libertarianism

View attachment 346238


lots of comments/discussion on the above image here

I will read this later today after my chores ty.

 

[Serene]

Right wing libertarians believe in property and the power of money. So it's a liberty for those who already possess. The rest can get lost.
Left wing libertarians? Property is theft. (With a host of provisos ).

The top line is interesting and taken on board. The bottom line of your post, there is right wing and left wing libertarianism?! Interesting.

I will read it again after my chores ty.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The top line is interesting and taken on board. The bottom line of your post, there is right wing and left wing libertarianism?! Interesting.

I will read it again after my chores ty.

By left wing libertarianism I mean mainstream anarchism. Spanish speaking anarchists aimed for 'libertarian communism'.

 

[Serge Forward]

The term libertarian was coined by Joseph Déjacque - Wikipedia
Yer Hayeks, Rands and other assorted pro capitalist individualist fanatics just happen to like the word and kept it for themselves, as they do. Pity they didn't like the word cunts so much, as that would be more apt.

 

[danny la rouge]

This from google

Google isn’t a location, it’s a way of searching. Saying “from Google” is a bit like quoting a source in an essay and writing in brackets afterwards “from a book or journal the librarian helped me find”.

The reader needs to know which book or journal. Both so they can find the quote and see it in context for themselves if they wish, but also because that information can help the reader understand the bias of the author (there is always a bias), the veracity of the claim (if there’s a claim), the quality of the research behind the claim (if there has been research), and so on.

For example, you introduced Neil Peart to us as journalist and writer. In fact he was a drummer and lyricist for a rock band. (He also wrote memoirs, I understand). I haven’t read his memoirs, but I remember his lyrics from the bands albums in the mid 70s because my aunt (my mother’s youngest sibling, my mum being the oldest of a large family, making my aunt more akin to a cousin to me) was a huge fan at the time and I heard the lyrical themes repeatedly. They were right wing, and in my opinion, in quality, very juvenile.

For example:

The Trees

There is unrest in the Forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the Maples want more sunlight
And the Oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the Maples
(And they’re quite convinced they’re right)
They say the Oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the Oaks can’t help their feelings
If they like the way they’re made
And they wonder why the Maples
Can’t be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the Forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the Maples scream ‘Oppression!’
And the Oaks, just shake their heads

So the Maples formed a Union
And demanded equal rights
‘The Oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light’
Now there’s no more Oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw…

 

[Ĝasper]

(neo)Liberalism requires a strong state, the state is needed to assist capital in the class war.

How come so many right wingers talk about shrinking the state then?

 

[Ĝasper]

The next question is how does this enrich peoples lives more than how things are currently in society. What is it in this way of life that makes things better for the individual?

Its not one or the other. Partaking in a subculture doesn't remove you free the wider world. In fact it can spread influence outwards.

 

[Ĝasper]

You need law. Crime has to be punished or it really would be anarchy. Libertarianism isnt full on in that sense. I think they wish for there to be laws and courts, or do they??

In a libertarian utopian setting, disagreements would be settled in out of court settings. More like people's assemblies. But its such a long term vision, with us rooted in a non-utopia, that they wouldn't necessarily oppose court cases.

 

[danny la rouge]

How come so many right wingers talk about shrinking the state then?

Thatcher, while repeatedly using the catchphrase “rolling back the state”, in fact vastly enlarged the state. It is more accurate to say that neoliberals want a free market for labour and the poor but a welfare state for capital and the rich.

Similarly, right libertarians may be socially liberal, but not in an egalitarian, collective sense. The “right to enslave oneself” being the “choice” of the poor, while the powerful ubermensch get to indulge the “freedoms” their privilege can buy. This is a right wing, individualist attitude.

Left and right are problematic terms for a number of reasons. I place my politics in a collectivist sphere, whereas right libertarians are individualist. It’s solidarity versus egotist selfishness.

 

[Sweet FA]

Google isn’t a location, it’s a way of searching. Saying “from Google” is a bit like quoting a source in an essay and writing in brackets afterwards “from a book or journal the librarian helped me find”.

The reader needs to know which book or journal. Both so they can find the quote and see it in context for themselves if they wish, but also because that information can help the reader understand the bias of the author (there is always a bias), the veracity of the claim (if there’s a claim), the quality of the research behind the claim (if there has been research), and so on.

For example, you introduced Neil Peart to us as journalist and writer. In fact he was a drummer and lyricist for a rock band. (He also wrote memoirs, I understand). I haven’t read his memoirs, but I remember his lyrics from the bands albums in the mid 70s because my aunt (my mother’s youngest sibling, my mum being the oldest of a large family, making my aunt more akin to a cousin to me) was a huge fan at the time and I heard the lyrical themes repeatedly. They were right wing, and in my opinion, in quality, very juvenile.

For example:

The Trees

There is unrest in the Forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the Maples want more sunlight
And the Oaks ignore their pleas.

The trouble with the Maples
(And they’re quite convinced they’re right)
They say the Oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the Oaks can’t help their feelings
If they like the way they’re made
And they wonder why the Maples
Can’t be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the Forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the Maples scream ‘Oppression!’
And the Oaks, just shake their heads

So the Maples formed a Union
And demanded equal rights
‘The Oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light’
Now there’s no more Oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw…

Fuck me, Rush are so abominably shite it's untrue. Everything about them manages to both enrage & sicken me.


I would post that on the 'things that give you the rage' thread but it's not unreasonable.

 

[danny la rouge]

Thatcher, while repeatedly using the catchphrase “rolling back the state”, in fact vastly enlarged the state.

I’d recommend David Harvey (2005) A Brief History of Neoliberalism.

(He’s a Rosa Luxembourgian, and ill informed about anarchism, but he’s worth reading).

 

[Ĝasper]

Thatcher, while repeatedly using the catchphrase “rolling back the state”, in fact vastly enlarged the state. It is more accurate to say that neoliberals want a free market for labour and the poor but a welfare state for capital and the rich.

Similarly, right libertarians may be socially liberal, but not in an egalitarian, collective sense. The “right to enslave oneself” being the “choice” of the poor, while the powerful ubermensch get to indulge the “freedoms” their privilege can buy. This is a right wing, individualist attitude.

Left and right are problematic terms for a number of reasons. I place my politics in a collectivist sphere, whereas right libertarians are individualist. It’s solidarity versus egotist selfishness.

Opposition to NHS and all state owned industry, I'd call that shrinking the state. At least parts of it, while growing other parts as you say.

 

[danny la rouge]

Similarly, right libertarians may be socially liberal, but not in an egalitarian, collective sense. The “right to enslave oneself” being the “choice” of the poor, while the powerful ubermensch get to indulge the “freedoms” their privilege can buy. This is a right wing, individualist attitude.

The Trees being a perfect example of the individualist privilege I describe.

 

[danny la rouge]

Opposition to NHS and all state owned industry, I'd call that shrinking the state. At least parts of it, while growing other parts as you say.

Yes, free market for the poor and labour. Targeted state shrinkage.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Regarding individualism (as in personal autonomy, free expression and personal creativity), some would argue that the best, and really the only, way to get to true individualism in this sense would be through libertarian (or anarchist) communism and I'd say I'm one of those people. Individualism in this sense is essential to create a functioning and innovative community and a strong supportive community is essential to create true autonomy and all the great things that it may facilitate. They are mutually essential. And it seems that this is a side of anarchism that is probably not promoted and focussed on enough by anarchists (and left libertarians). But this is different from individualist anarchism, which is a certain school of anarchism that I can't say I'm interested in. Some would argue that people like Hayek and Rand and those sort of 'individualists' are not really individualists at all, they're just selfish arseholes and I'd say thats probably the case.

 

[danny la rouge]

Regarding individualism (as in personal autonomy, free expression and personal creativity), some would argue that the best, and really the only, way to get to true individualism in this sense would be through libertarian (or anarchist) communism and I'd say I'm one of those people. And this is a side of anarchism that is probably not promoted and focussed on enough by anarchists. But this is different from individualist anarchism, which is a certain school of anarchism that I can't say I'm interested in. Some would argue that people like Hayek and Rand and those sort of 'individualists' are not really individualists at all, they're just selfish arseholes and I'd say thats probably the case.

I wouldn’t use the term “individualism” in the sense of personal autonomy or freedom because of the connotations.