"The UK has the most expensive train fares in Europe"

[teuchter]

People say this all the time.

Rarely do they have anything solid to back it up with, though. Occasionally there'll be a piece in the papers claiming the same, but looking a bit closer usually reveals that they haven't compared like with like (they compare our walk-up fares with other countries' advance fares, for example).

I've certainly been very sceptical that it's true, for some time. Partly because people in the UK generally love to moan about the railways, but also based on trips on the continent where the train fares just don't seem to be all that cheap at all.

The way to get a definitive answer would be to randomly select lots of journeys across Europe, group them according to length and speed, and do a massive fares search for them all, testing both for advance travel and immediate travel, and then draw something out of the results. Something I'd do in a universe where I had unlimited spare time.

So, this is interesting:

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.U_Uau0iSBMA

Conclusion..
So the next time someone says (or you read) "Britain has the highest rail fares in Europe", you'll know this is only 15% of the story. The other 85% is that we have similar or even cheaper fares, too. The big picture is that Britain has the most commercially aggressive fares in Europe, with the highest fares designed to get maximum revenue from business travel, and some of the lowest fares designed to get more revenue by filling more seats. This is exactly what airlines have known, and been doing, for decades. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself, check some UK train fares at www.nationalrail.co.uk...

It's not as thorough as would ideally be the case, but it's loads better than the rubbish the papers print every time there's a fares rise - in fact mr seat61 did his investigation in response to this article in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Rail-fare-hike-Britain-vs-rest-of-Europe.html

 

[Dogsauce]

I think long distance in advance is good value.

For local and regional journeys where advance ticketing isn't always available it feels like robbery compared to say places like Barcelona local services. Up here in Yorkshire cross-boundary services to places like York or Doncaster from Leeds feel extortionate for the time/distance involved, and return fares aren't always available. It's routine once or twice a year to get a 'go anywhere for a tenner' deal on east coast, but if from Leeds you want to go to say Edinburgh and aren't coming back the same day, you'll pay more than a tenner just getting to York and back on a local service to join a northbound service there (through services don't run because of the stupid gap in the wiring east of Leeds). I think people are frustrated with the inconsistency as much as anything.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

UK advance fares can be cheap, walk up fares are very, very expensive.

And day to day fares can be a piss take, Schiphol to Amsterdam CS €5, how much is Heathrow Express again?

 

[Pingu]

as someone who gets peak hour trains to dat der london a fair bit i would say we have expensive fares (£301 for an open return) for this i can fly to poland, stay over for the night and have a night out on the piss with a slap up meal and come back

 

[Santino]

I would say that having the "most commercially aggressive fares in Europe" is equally valid as a criticism. Why should a public service be commercially aggressive?

 

[teuchter]

I think long distance in advance is good value.

For local and regional journeys where advance ticketing isn't always available it feels like robbery compared to say places like Barcelona local services. Up here in Yorkshire cross-boundary services to places like York or Doncaster from Leeds feel extortionate for the time/distance involved, and return fares aren't always available. It's routine once or twice a year to get a 'go anywhere for a tenner' deal on east coast, but if from Leeds you want to go to say Edinburgh and aren't coming back the same day, you'll pay more than a tenner just getting to York and back on a local service to join a northbound service there (through services don't run because of the stupid gap in the wiring east of Leeds). I think people are frustrated with the inconsistency as much as anything.

Leeds - York is about 25 miles. Off peak return is £17.20 without a railcard. Anytime return £20.90.

Germany: Cologne to Dusseldorf is the same distance. €25 (£20) or €30 (£24) for a return, depending when you travel.

 

[quimcunx]

Leeds - York is about 25 miles. Off peak return is £17.20 without a railcard. Anytime return £20.90.

Germany: Cologne to Dusseldorf is the same distance. €25 (£20) or €30 (£24) for a return, depending when you travel.

How much is the peak return?

 

[Chilli.s]

"most commercially aggressive fares in Europe"
I've read through all this bollocks and the answer is yes. Worst rail network in Europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

"most commercially aggressive fares in Europe"
I've read through all this bollocks and the answer is yes. Worst rail network in Europe.

surely lichtenstein has a worse rail network

 

[Chilli.s]

I'm thrilled for lichtenstein

 

[Citizen66]

Of course leisure travellers never take journeys at the same convenient times as the business customers they're constantly rinsing.

In fact, in order to get the best deals you need to be a person of leisure such as the Queen while the poor sods trying to get to work to earn a living are robbed blind.

 

[Chilli.s]

Commuting, just another tax.

 

[EastEnder]

as someone who gets peak hour trains to dat der london a fair bit i would say we have expensive fairs (£301 for an open return) for this i can fly to poland, stay over for the night and have a night out on the piss with a slap up meal and come back

I think you should go to Poland instead. Sounds like you'd have a better time anyway, and London's way too overcrowded as it is.

 

[ruffneck23]

I used to get the train to work, used to take me 2 hours each way at a cost of £19.80 to go as the crow flies 17 miles.

Now I drive it takes me 20 minutes at a cost of £5.

The train service is an over priced shamble.

 

[Pingu]

I think you should go to Poland instead. Sounds like you'd have a better time anyway, and London's shit anyhow.

fixed it for ya

 

[teuchter]

How much is the peak return?

Anytime return is valid at any time and is £20.90 as I said.

 

[quimcunx]

Anytime return is valid at any time and is £20.90 as I said.

*makes mental note to take screenshots before quoting*

 

[Roadkill]

The 'most expensive fares in Europe' thing is a cliche. It's not wholly untrue: walk-up fares are pricey and season tickets are among the highest in Europe, if not the highest - see here, although it's three years old now - but advance tickets can be among the cheapest, especially if you travel off-peak and book well ahead. Woe betide you if you don't, though.

 

[The Boy]

I used to get the train to work, used to take me 2 hours each way at a cost of £19.80 to go as the crow flies 17 miles.

Now I drive it takes me 20 minutes at a cost of £5.

The train service is an over priced shamble.

Have you accounted for costs other than fuel?

 

[T & P]

They were showing a differently-angled statistic in the news yesterday. They did a comparison between various European countries about what percentage of a daily commuter's salary was taken up by the cost of a season ticket.

IIRC, in France this was 4%. In Spain it was 3%, and in Italy just 1%.

And in Great Britain? 14%.

Fourteen-fucking-percent.

 

[Chilli.s]

They were showing a differently-angled statistic in the news yesterday. They did a comparison between various European countries about what percentage of a daily commuter's salary was taken up by the cost of a season ticket.

IIRC, in France this was 4%. In Spain it was 3%, and in Italy just 1%.

And in Great Britain? 14%.

Fourteen-fucking-percent.

Bend over!

 

[ruffneck23]

Have you accounted for costs other than fuel?

£1.56 insurance , about 50p Tax a day more so still a bargain, but id pay more than that just to cut 90 mins off my journey each way.

 

[The Boy]

£1.56 insurance , about 50p Tax a day more so still a bargain, but id pay more than that just to cut 90 mins off my journey each way.

Anybody would. I wasn't trying to have a go at you, just pointing out a common error people make comparing relative costs of different modes of transport.

Oh, and you missed something off your list

 

[Citizen66]

The price and devaluation of the car. Or 'wear and tear' in forecourt lingo. Plus MOTs and any repair works, membership of RAC etc etc.

 

[ruffneck23]

I get your point, but it still beats the train

 

[skyscraper101]

People say this all the time.

Rarely do they have anything solid to back it up with, though. Occasionally there'll be a piece in the papers claiming the same, but looking a bit closer usually reveals that they haven't compared like with like (they compare our walk-up fares with other countries' advance fares, for example).

I've certainly been very sceptical that it's true, for some time. Partly because people in the UK generally love to moan about the railways, but also based on trips on the continent where the train fares just don't seem to be all that cheap at all.

The way to get a definitive answer would be to randomly select lots of journeys across Europe, group them according to length and speed, and do a massive fares search for them all, testing both for advance travel and immediate travel, and then draw something out of the results. Something I'd do in a universe where I had unlimited spare time.

So, this is interesting:

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.U_Uau0iSBMA




It's not as thorough as would ideally be the case, but it's loads better than the rubbish the papers print every time there's a fares rise - in fact mr seat61 did his investigation in response to this article in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Rail-fare-hike-Britain-vs-rest-of-Europe.html

Actually that article is bollocks, and here's why. Firstly, Seat61.com man is Mark Smith who used to set fares at the Department of Transport so he has an agenda to push and a legacy to defend.

Mark Smith...used to set fares at the Department of Transport and now runs the website The Man in Seat 61

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16390608

Second, and to save myself repeating what I already said in the Bungle fail thread it's easier just reading my reply here:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/i-got-banged-in-the-arse-by-sw-trains-for-£32.326031/page-12#post-13315386

Smith selectively uses different fares across equivalent routes but doesn't compare like with like. He also pulls that 15% figure out of the air and its based on no real actual data. Plus there are other sources suggesting that the UK does in fact have the most expensive rail fares in Europe if not the world. But it can be spun to suggest otherwise, if you are selective with the data. This is exactly what he's doing here.

 

[editor]

Here's an interesting comparison (with Telegraph quotes):

--------

As an adult around London, one day's travel comes to the same cost as almost six days in Warsaw, assuming you bought a new travel card every day. Anyone for Gulasz?

There's an estimated nine mile difference in the distances between London to Bristol and Marsille to Nice, but a £67.50 price difference. Mon Dieu.

It's more than three times as expensive to travel from Milan to Rome as from London to Edinburgh. We may have invented the railway system, but I'm not sure we're using it particularly well.

----

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Rail-fare-hike-Britain-vs-rest-of-Europe.html

 

[teuchter]

What fare have they chosen for London-Bristol? The most expensive single fare it is possible to buy - an Anytime single, allowing you to travel at peak times on the fastest route. In reality, you can also choose from the following walk-up single fares:
£42 for an off-peak
£38 travelling at peak times but by slower route (from Waterloo)
£31 super-off-peak
It also ignores the peculiarity of the UK system that means returns are usually not much more than singles. So buying a return (and most journeys are returns):
£69 Off peak return (£35 per leg)
£67 Anytime return by slower route (£34 per leg)
£55 Super off peak return (£28 per leg)
£40 off peak day return by slower route (£20 per leg)

So in fact there is a range of fares spread between £20 and £42 that would suit a lot of journeys. But they only use the £96 one.

And that's before you consider AP fares, which you can get for around £15.


This is why these kinds of surveys that the newspapers do are pretty much worthless.

 

[teuchter]

Actually that article is bollocks, and here's why. Firstly, Seat61.com man is Mark Smith who used to set fares at the Department of Transport so he has an agenda to push and a legacy to defend.

It's quite a tenuous conspiracy theory. He worked for the DfT seven years ago, therefore he is probably distorting the facts about UK fares relative to European ones? Even though he now makes his living from running seat61 which is a website helping people to find the best routes and fares for train travel in Europe?

He is quite clear about the fact that fares in the UK are expensive in certain circumstances:

Yup, you guessed it, now the UK is indisputably the most expensive, although this is only for travel in the Monday-Friday business peaks. I gather only 10-15% of travellers on a typical inter-city route buy these business-priced Anytime fares, so this is just 10-15% of the story.

For a purely one-way [walk-up] journey the UK is now more expensive.

Smith selectively uses different fares across equivalent routes but doesn't compare like with like. He also pulls that 15% figure out of the air and its based on no real actual data. Plus there are other sources suggesting that the UK does in fact have the most expensive rail fares in Europe if not the world. But it can be spun to suggest otherwise, if you are selective with the data. This is exactly what he's doing here.

Where doesn't he compare like with like?

He says that it's his understanding that about 10-15% of journeys on intercity routes are peak walk-up fares - are you saying he's lying, or just completely making it up without having any actual knowledge?

What are your "other sources" that suggest that the UK has the most expensive fares in Europe - are they better than the kind of dodgy newspaper articles posted above?

 

[T & P]

Here is a link to the report I mentioned earlier. These are monthly season ticket prices, and surely far more difficult to manipulate to suit an agenda as they are more or less fixed and the only ones on offer, as I understand it at least

http://actionforrail.org/uk-commuters-pay-over-three-times-more-than-most-european-passengers-2/

Pretty damning and proof that UK regular commuter rail fares are exorbitant and about the most expensive about.