The UK banking system

[fractionMan]

If there is no shortage of a commodity, then it doesn't really matter if the money supply is infinite, the price of the commodity doesn't need to go up..

But it does though, doesn't it? When a government (like say, laos) prints more money, the value of it goes down.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It is funny in hindsight, but I bet it wasn't a joke at the time!

I haven't read enough of Gessell to comment on that, but it strikes me that if the world's resources, natural and produced, are limited, then any notion that money should not be scarce leaves a fundamental disconnect between the two concepts.<snip>

One of the suggested virtues of local currencies or credit exchanges being though, that when the global money system contracts due to markets 'aping unreason proleptically' or something, they buffer the ill-effects by allowing the local economy to continue to function to a greater extent than it would otherwise be able to. I'm pretty sure the Swiss WIR system for example got started in a recession.

Also, I think you could probably make an argument that most of that scarcity of resources is created in the first place by primitive accumulation and that money is used to regulate that scarcity. That takes us into rather theoretical territory though, and maybe it'd be a good idea to keep things more concrete to avoid floating off into la la land.

 

[ZWord]

But it does though, doesn't it? When a government (like say, laos) prints more money, the value of it goes down.

I expect so, on the world money markets, if it's known that they're printing it. And apparently this is behind the devaluation of the dollar in that it is in some way a global response to the massive printing of money by whoever it is who prints money in the US, though the amount of devaluation of the $ is not nearly proportionate to the amount of money the US has invented.

But that's a slightly different argument. I just wanted to question the glib economist's thing saying you can't just have governments print money, and spend their way out of trouble because you'd get massive inflation. It's not that simple,
Here in the UK, we definitely don't have a food shortage, we're at the top of the world economies, and so there's always enough food for us.., on the other hand, there is a shortage of the commodity housing, so with a load of extra money, invented, manufactured, pillaged earned or whatever, what have we seen, big inflation in housing prices, and not much inflation in anything else.

 

[Jazzz]

I see you've not yet replied to my last post. You're yet to define what you mean by 'creating credit out of thin air'. Banks do not just, as you say, type numbers onto a spreadsheet. Money is deposited with them, they have to hold some as a reserve requirement as not everybody wants to spend it at once, and some deposit money in banks long term so the banks know they can use it; indeed, that's why bank deposit accounts bear interest for savers. It's not just big bad banks who gain, but people like you and I with savings accounts.

(etc.)

Yes they do. You have not got your head round the process; when a bank gives a loan the money does not come from anywhere. It exists in the person's account simply because the numbers are typed in. No other depositor is told 'you can't withdraw your money because we've lent it out to someone else'.

The trick is exactly the same as centuries ago - little has changed from when William Paterson (founder of the Bank of England) declared "the bank hath benefit of interest from all monies it creates out of nothing" and Josiah Stamp described money creation as the action of a pen.

Old quotes? Well you simply choose to ignore the modern ones. Let me remind of you Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

"Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits."

and which describes the process as being that which was discovered by goldsmiths centuries ago.

More later as I intend to digest that document.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

. . . And apparently this is behind the devaluation of the dollar in that it is in some way a global response to the massive printing of money by whoever it is who prints money in the US, though the amount of devaluation of the $ is not nearly proportionate to the amount of money the US has invented.
. . . .

er, exactly what dollar devaluation?? It's been in a strong uptrend against the Yen since Q1 2005, flat to small down against sterling and off about 10% against the euro.


(btw, when people talk about printing money, thay actually mean debt issuance, not the physical printing of banknotes)

 

[ZWord]

er, exactly what dollar devaluation?? It's been in a strong uptrend against the Yen since Q1 2005, flat to small down against sterling and off about 10% against the euro.


(btw, when people talk about printing money, thay actually mean debt issuance, not the physical printing of banknotes)

http://www.iie.com/publications/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?id=87

"Further substantial declines in the foreign exchange value of the dollar will be needed in order to make a serious dent in the record US current account deficit of almost $500 billion ..."

(feb 26 2003)

I won't be replying to any more unwarranted attacks on what I say by you

 

[Azrael23]

Yes they do. You have not got your head round the process; when a bank gives a loan the money does not come from anywhere. It exists in the person's account simply because the numbers are typed in. No other depositor is told 'you can't withdraw your money because we've lent it out to someone else'.

The trick is exactly the same as centuries ago - little has changed from when William Paterson (founder of the Bank of England) declared "the bank hath benefit of interest from all monies it creates out of nothing" and Josiah Stamp described money creation as the action of a pen.

Old quotes? Well you simply choose to ignore the modern ones. Let me remind of you Modern Money Mechanics produced by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago

"Of course, they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits."

and which describes the process as being that which was discovered by goldsmiths centuries ago.

More later as I intend to digest that document.

TOP POST. Succinct and Factual.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

There's a good deal of nuts and bolts information (slightly US slanted) about how this stuff actually works in Doug Henwood's 'Wall Street'.

Since Verso let it go out of print, he's been kind enough to make it downloadable as a PDF

 

[phildwyer]

There's a good deal of nuts and bolts information (slightly US slanted) about how this stuff actually works in Doug Henwood's 'Wall Street'.

Since Verso let it go out of print, he's been kind enough to make it downloadable as a PDF

I am cited in that book!

 

[phildwyer]

why do not i believe you.

Doñ´t know. ¿Perhaps the concept of foreign travel is so alien to your pathetic, parochial sensibilities as to be inconceivable?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I am cited in that book!

Heh, so you are. I would still recommend it to anyone who wants to understand this stuff though

 

[zArk]

This wasñ´t addressed to me, but siñce you seem so exercised by it añd ño-oñe else is replying, I´ll give you an answer. Wheñ the *medium* of exchange becomes an *object* of exchange, money breaks free of any material or external referent and becomes self-referential and thus añ autonomous power. Now I have a question for you--¿so what?

wow, someone actually could be bothered.

so what?

It would indicate that there isnt any group, class or person at the controls of the economical system. That the system produces everything through it. There is no enemy to fight and no one to seek out except oneself.

 

[zArk]

what personally interests me is;

"The science of co-incidence: a sociological analysis of chance"

key points;
9/11 New York
simulated drills of hijacked planes flying into the twin towers at exactly the same time as it actually happened

7/7 London
simulation exercise drill being conducted of simultaneous bombs going off in exactly the same locations and times as they actually did

its all just a co-incidence

so i am going to scientifically analyse co-incidence

 

[White Lotus]

What do you make of the notion of democratising money creation. For example by local businesses agreeing to underwrite some sort of local currency, enabling an area where at least some people are engaged in productive labour to retain the value of that labour rather than having it devalued by global competition and speculation?

The nearest thing we have had to that has been the Time Bank concept, akin to local credit unions but based on, say, you putting in hours at what you are good at, and drawing hours from someone else, like babysitting. In effect, the hours are a very pure form of money - they can't attract interest - but what they lack is negotiability.

When I googled "Time Bank" the top hit was for a site by that name, which turns out to be New Labour's bastardization of the concept. They use the term to denote your volunteer labour, not a fair exchange of services. However, this other site retains at least some vestiges of the original idea:

http://www.londontimebank.org.uk/ (although it does seem out of date)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Have you seen the Swiss WIR scheme? Original founders were followers of Gesell by the look of it.

http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/wir.html

It's kind of middle-class, but it's been working for 60 years and has a turnover in the billions of swiss francs.

 

[White Lotus]

Have you seen the Swiss WIR scheme? Original founders were followers of Gesell by the look of it.

http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/wir.html

It's kind of middle-class, but it's been working for 60 years and has a turnover in the billions of swiss francs.

Interesting history there, thanks. But it looks as if it became subject to many of the same pressures as money itself, and therefore in the end lost a lot of its original ideals. I suspect the same may hold true of any "alternative money" scheme.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interesting history there, thanks. But it looks as if it became subject to many of the same pressures as money itself, and therefore in the end lost a lot of its original ideals. I suspect the same may hold true of any "alternative money" scheme.

It looks to me as though they may have different weaknesses. WIR is secured by collateral, and its main problems seem to be a tendency to turn into something more like a business credit union and to discounting against the national currency. LETS schemes on the other hand seem to mainly suffer from the problem that it stores value poorly, because nobody knows for sure whether the scheme will still be running at a given time in the future and the currency isn't secured like WIR.

 

[zArk]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I'm still waiting for you to produce some contempory and verifiable sources to back up your "Iranian Oil trading in Eur" assertion btw . . . .

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/petrov/2006/0120.html

The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
by Krassimir Petrov, Ph.D.
Austrian Macro Economist/Investment Strategist
Commissioned by: J. Douglas Bowey and Associates

January 20, 2006
The Iranian government has recently proposed to open in March 2006 an Iranian Oil Bourse that will be based on an euro-based oil-trading mechanism that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam’s, because it will allow anyone willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that much of the world will eagerly adopt this euro-denominated oil system


Whatever the strategic choice, from a purely economic point of view, should the Iranian Oil Bourse gain momentum, it will be eagerly embraced by major economic powers and will precipitate the demise of the dollar.


additionally--- United Press International have run the story
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060118-052333-1392r

enjoying your GM Maize seed.. mmmm yummy

btw. i spoke with Bev Hughes today; she voted aye for the GM Maize seed and couldnt explain why she had agreed to the implementation of this.
I suggested that parliament was taking orders from the EU, who were taking orders from the WTO, who were governed by GATT, signed decades ago.
She couldnt answer me and asked me to write to her with all my concerns.
I was right there in front of her. The fucking weasle like demon.

 

[118118]

So money is autonomous because of M>M>M. But M>C>M is still happening (I mean not all commodities are money)- doesn't this show that some parts of capital are not autonomous? Doesn't this boil down to capital being potentially autonomous?

 

[Azrael23]

what personally interests me is;

"The science of co-incidence: a sociological analysis of chance"

key points;
9/11 New York
simulated drills of hijacked planes flying into the twin towers at exactly the same time as it actually happened

7/7 London
simulation exercise drill being conducted of simultaneous bombs going off in exactly the same locations and times as they actually did

its all just a co-incidence

so i am going to scientifically analyse co-incidence

They did work out the odds of having terror drills on the same days as actual attacks and at the same targets. The number has 48 0`s.
Of course the drills are needed because that way anyone caught doing something they shouldn`t be or radion chatter picked up can be blamed on the drill.

 

[zArk]

They did work out the odds of having terror drills on the same days as actual attacks and at the same targets. The number has 48 0`s.
Of course the drills are needed because that way anyone caught doing something they shouldn`t be or radion chatter picked up can be blamed on the drill.

Yeah, the odds worked out were astronomical.

My take on it is that the simulacra externally acting is co-inciding with the simulacra internally acting.

It is re-producing the real through us.

Deleuze wrote about 'lines of flight' and traced lines, i am saying that the point of convergence is 'co-incidence'.

The simulacra is internalised to such a point that human agency is subsumed. These top brass officials are completely taken over by the simulacra and its line of flight and traced line are converging.

Usually co-incidence occurs with small effects, meeting someone you know when on holiday or picking the phone up at the same time as it begins to ring. Unfortunately the simulacra has become internalised to such an extent that beaurocracy [derived through the simulacra] and human action [simulacra subsumed] are interlinking with devasting effects.

The exercise drills were mimicked exactly and at the same time as human action. At this point it is assumed, using thinking processes that developed out of the Marxist school of thought, that someone was controlling these events. Someone, a group with their own agency. Yet my explanation is that it is more horrific.
As phil dwyer indicated pages ago, it is actually the Devil. When you hear researchers going on about 'satanists', 'devil worshippers' they are talking about the economic system, the simulacra, being worshipped and beign allowed to act through them. The God position has been replaced by money [the fear of the iconoclasts and the fear that Baudrillard expands upon writing about simulacra].

Politicians and world leaders have no idea how the fuck these two events happened, but they do know that the vast governmental structure with multiple departments are completely out of control and are determined to reign them in. With all this new legislation, the plan [by these nutters] is to create a totalitarian system in which the few at the top of government have total control over all human action.. and thus in their thinking prevent these events happening again. --- they are fucking crazy, they have lost their minds.

a fascist dictatorship is their only option.

So you see, i do not follow the trains of thought that 'That group' there is doing all this, that the government committed 911 and that the government committed 7/7. Listen to Alex Jones, Paul Watson, David Icke, Michael Ruppert, Peter Dale Scott they all agree that 'government funded terrorism is being carried out'. They are quiet clear not to say 'the government did it', just that ' the government was complicit'.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/petrov/2006/0120.html
. . . The Iranian government has recently proposed to open in March 2006 an Iranian Oil Bourse that will be based on an euro-based oil-trading mechanism . . .

Any danger at all of a source that gives specifics.
All your doing is posting links to speculation.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

http://www.iie.com/publications/newsreleases/newsrelease.cfm?id=87

"Further substantial declines in the foreign exchange value of the dollar will be needed in order to make a serious dent in the record US current account deficit of almost $500 billion ..."

(feb 26 2003)

I won't be replying to any more unwarranted attacks on what I say by you

You stated that something had happened (". . . And apparently this is behind the devaluation of the dollar").
I pointed out that the dollar hasn't devalued in any significant sense against the Euro, Yen and Sterling (ie you were wrong).
In what way does the link you posted and the quote you used demonstrate you were correct?

 

[zArk]

Any danger at all of a source that gives specifics.
All your doing is posting links to speculation.

UPI --- United Press International!!!

The Iran Bourse is planned for March

additionally--- United Press International have run the story
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060118-052333-1392r

 

[zArk]

Any danger at all of a source that gives specifics.
All your doing is posting links to speculation.

Funny logic you are employing dashing blade. Omission = non-proof
in light of the US and EU's reasons for believing Iran are moving towards a nuclear weapon program;

the IAEA reports that Iran have done nothing wrong over the years with regard to the P1 and P2 programs. Iran have given full access of their nuclear power plants to the IAEA, have real time monitoring equipment in their nuclear power plants and given all information/documents and proof that they are legitimate.

Now heres the interesting point;
The EU and US are claiming that the lack of proof between 1995-2002 that Iran werent conducting a nuclear weapons programs makes them guilty.

Now get that round your heads--

Iran must provide documented proof of something they didnt do!

Back to Dashing Blade;

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/02/19/gen.strategic.influence/

stop acting like a shill, its embarrassing.

*Hope you're getting well paid

 

[A Dashing Blade]

I don't give a flying f**k about Irans nuclear position.
You have stated that there will be a new Iranian Oil Bourse starting up about now.
I'm asking you to prove it.
You havn't because you can't.
Admit you are wrong please.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

UPI --- United Press International!!!

The Iran Bourse is planned for March

additionally--- United Press International have run the story
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060118-052333-1392r

"The Tehran bourse is listed as an objective for this year in Iran's current five-year plan."

Again, no specifics.
Next.

 

[Azrael23]

I don't give a flying f**k about Irans nuclear position.
You have stated that there will be a new Iranian Oil Bourse starting up about now.
I'm asking you to prove it.
You havn't because you can't.
Admit you are wrong please.

Its a petty issue compared with the global banking system ADB.

Don`t make lots of noise about a small issue then just ignore the big questions and real issues. The issues that are effecting you and me as we type.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

You have stated that there will be a new Iranian Oil Bourse starting up about now.
I'm asking you to prove it.
You havn't because you can't.
Admit you are wrong please.

He's not wrong - YOU are.

Chris Cook (former director of the IPE - sacked for whistleblowing on 'manipulation') writes about it here:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA21Ak01.html

As anyone familiar with the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will know, the denomination of oil sales in currencies other than the dollar is not a new subject, and as anyone familiar with economics will tell you, the denomination of oil sales is merely a transactional issue*: what matters is in what assets (or, in the case of the United States, liabilities ) these proceeds are then invested.

After a couple of years of apparent inaction, my colleague and I were invited to put together a consortium to tender for a project to create such an exchange and, after a presentation at the central bank in Tehran in May 2004, we were successful, as reported in The Guardian at the time. We subsequently learned that the delay had been due to initial opposition from the Saudis and this opposition was withdrawn after the attacks of September 11, 2001, and the subsequent US-led invasion of Iraq.

A major feasibility study was carried out in the summer of 2004 - for which we still have not been paid by the Iranian Oil Ministry - and after this, the process became bogged down in turf battles between the Oil Ministry and the Ministry for the Economy.

We met president Mohammad Khatami in December 2004 to resolve this problem and then spent considerable time with his close advisers, from whom we received powerful backing. Progress was made, to the extent that an exchange entity was incorporated and premises purchased on Kish Island in the Persian Gulf.

He's talking shit, but he's still talking about it.

I'll give you one more chance to demonstrate that you actually know what you are talking about.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

It's simple.

Just tell me when the IOB will start.

I'm sure that it's been discussed, I'm sure there have been feasability studies,I'm sure the Iranians would love it.

But you guys are banging on about it as if it's a done deal with zArk saying it's going to start this month.

It isn't.
Period.
End Of.

zArk was wrong.

And no-one can provide reputable, verifiable links (in fact any link whatsoever) that describe it's set up, it's constitution,when trading will start etc etc etc.

FFS, you idiots think that setting up a exchange or market (they are two differnent legal entities btw) can be achieved by a wave of a magic wand.

It can't. It should take 18months min.

So, someones talking bollox and it ain't me.