The Islamic state

[kebabking]

how lucky you are to be among the fortunate few. i had to pop to waitrose to get a cherry pastry this morning.

i knew it - i'm far more prole than yeow, as i went to Lidl, and had a raspberry(?) muffin and a tomato and goats cheese brushetta.

oh, hang on, that doesn't sound very prole....

 

[Pickman's model]

i knew it - i'm far more prole than yeow, as i went to Lidl, and had a raspberry(?) muffin and a tomato and goats cheese brushetta.

oh, hang on, that doesn't sound very prole....

i have to buy at what i pass on the way to work. and i don't pass a lidl or an aldi.

 

[Spymaster]

The fact that these twats were fucking daesh and the govt have still managed to create a pr fuckup says a lot

There is no pr fuck up. A few questions being asked, but the overall impression I'm getting from headlines and comments (other than here) is that the government has played a blinder.

 

[Teaboy]

i'd lay odds on it being a magic mix of reasons, all coming together.

firstly - and i'd suggest that this is the overwhelming reason - they wouldn't want it to leak, much better to be announcing than defending. secondly a naked political consideration to make Cameron look hard while caving in on the refugees issue. thirdly preparing the ground for whatever is going to be the next move against IS, whether thats air strikes on IS in Syrian territory or additional forces to Iraq.

This seems pretty sound reasoning to me. This is all being very carefully stage managed.

 

[kebabking]

i have to buy at what i pass on the way to work. and i don't pass a lidl or an aldi.

do you not have a Greggs in that there London, or is it all Smoked Salmon and Scrambled Eggs on Italian bread with super-extra virgin olive oil made by tattooed men with huge ginger beards?

 

[LDC]

i didn't think you would be.

 

[Pickman's model]

do you not have a Greggs in that there London, or is it all Smoked Salmon and Scrambled Eggs on Italian bread with super-extra virgin olive oil made by tattooed men with huge ginger beards?

yes. but i don't pass it on the way to work.

 

[likesfish]

outside of a very small group I dont think anyone gives a fuck more thinks killing people like that is a VERY GOOD THING ffs one of the dead twats tweeted he killed prisoners so bye bye

 

[DotCommunist]

There is no pr fuck up. A few questions being asked, but the overall impression I'm getting from headlines and comments (other than here) is that the government has played a blinder.

SNP come out saying its a bit off and there should be a look into it by...securities commision? someone anyway. Main bbc news on the radio just now

 

[Pickman's model]

outside of a very small group I dont think anyone gives a fuck more thinks killing people like that is a VERY GOOD THING ffs one of the dead twats tweeted he killed prisoners so bye bye

yes. and if the uk was at war with isis then it would no doubt be a very good thing which no one would have a qualm about.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Govt spokeswoman refusing to deny they have a 'kill-list'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Govt spokeswoman refusing to deny they have a 'kill-list'.

of course they have a kill list.

 

[Spymaster]

of course they have a kill list.

If not they damn well should have.

 

[Pickman's model]

If not they damn well should have.

OF COURSE THEY HAVE A KILL LIST

 

[Spymaster]

OF COURSE THEY HAVE A KILL LIST

IF NOT THEY DAMN WELL SHOULD HAVE

 

[DotCommunist]

haven't we all got one?

 

[Pickman's model]

haven't we all got one?

you've got yours and i've got mine - we're doing alright, yeh we're doing fine

 

[kebabking]

yes. and if the uk was at war with isis then it would no doubt be a very good thing which no one would have a qualm about.

how can the UK possibly be described by anyone as not being at war with IS?

we seak to strangle their economy, kill them, lock up their supporters and arm those who also fight them - i'm struggling to think of a better definition of being at war with someone..

 

[frogwoman]

Theres another reason this worries me though. When i heard about this yesterday i was happy (or at least didnt care) t their death, as they are war criminals, killing prisoners for isis snuff videos is a war crime, they have almost certainly raped and beheaded people too. Fuck them.

However, the reason it worries me is that during the last year daesh have built a reputation on being the 'defenders' of sunnis in iraq and syria and around the world. They have against seemingly all odds , managed to not only seize and hold territory despite battling every other armed force in the area, but managed to set up social services and manage these areas relatively efficiently (if horrifically). Most of their propaganda now involves showing their efforts in this area. Couldnt stuff like this strike potentially add to the idea that they are an underdog but are still 'winning' and therefore make some people more likely to support them?

 

[Pickman's model]

how can the UK possibly be described by anyone as not being at war with IS?

we seak to strangle their economy, kill them, lock up their supporters and arm those who also fight them - i'm struggling to think of a better definition of being at war with someone..

when did this war start then? when were hostilities declared?

 

[likesfish]

They are the enemy its war and frankly you support is you need to be killed end of

 

[Pickman's model]

Theres another reason this worries me though. When i heard about this yesterday i was happy (or at least didnt care) t their death, as they are war criminals, killing prisoners for isis snuff videos is a war crime, they have almost certainly raped and beheaded people too. Fuck them.

However, the reason it worries me is that during the last year daesh have built a reputation on being the 'defenders' of sunnis in iraq and syria and around the world. They have against seemingly all odds , managed to not only seize and hold territory despite battling every other armed force in the area, but managed to set up social services and manage these areas relatively efficiently (if horrifically). Most of their propaganda now involves showing their efforts in this area. Couldnt stuff like this strike potentially add to the idea that they are an underdog but are still 'winning' and therefore make some people more likely to support them?

yes.

next.

 

[Pickman's model]

They are the enemy its war and frankly you support is you need to be killed end of

very eloquently put. but when was this war begun? to me war is when you have two "armies" and they fight each other. where is the british army in all this?

 

[LDC]

Couldnt stuff like this strike potentially add to the idea that they are an underdog but are still 'winning' and therefore make some people more likely to support them?

Yeah, it could, and that's one of the arguments that people often use to argue about this (and any other) interventions.

The issue that I have with this is twofold. Firstly, how do we know? I suspect the reality is more complex, and while some people might be motivated by the strike, others might be equally dissuaded by it.

Secondly, and this is a bit more abstract, it that I think elements of that argument have their origins in the pernicious influence that pacifism has in the UK political scene, in that we shouldn't antagonize people, but we should just 'bear witness' or something to maintain the moral high ground.

 

[kebabking]

when did this war start then? when were hostilities declared?

i'm assuming you don't need to see a weather forecast to know whether its raining?

hostilities were declared by, err... the hostilities, you don't need to declare a war for a war to be happening, certainly our bearded friends don't seem to be lounging about and gobbing off on the radio safe in the knowledge that because no war has been declared they are safe from the ravages of the USAF...

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, it could, and that's one of the arguments that people often use to argue about this (and any other) interventions.

The issue that I have with this is twofold. Firstly, how do we know? I suspect the reality is more complex, and while some people might be motivated by the strike, others might be equally dissuaded by it.

Secondly, and this is a bit more abstract, it that I think elements of that argument have their origins in the pernicious influence that pacifism has in the UK political scene, in that we shouldn't antagonize people, but we should just 'bear witness' or something to maintain the moral high ground.

i don't think you need to be a pacifist to say 'there's something wrong here' when the state starts defying its own legislature.

 

[LDC]

very eloquently put. but when was this war begun? to me war is when you have two "armies" and they fight each other. where is the british army in all this?

Sitting in a bunker somewhere directing drones by the sound of it. Isn't 'war' a legal term rather than activity based one? Like the UK was obviously on one level at war with Argentina in 1982, but it was never declared as such.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm assuming you don't need to see a weather forecast to know whether its raining?

hostilities were declared by, err... the hostilities, you don't need to declare a war for a war to be happening, certainly our bearded friends don't seem to be lounging about and gobbing off on the radio safe in the knowledge that because no war has been declared they are safe from the ravages of the USAF...

i'm not talking about the united states or what they might be up to, i am curious to find out when you think this war between the uk and isis began, when we moved from a state of peace to a state of war.

 

[LDC]

i don't think you need to be a pacifist to say 'there's something wrong here' when the state starts defying its own legislature.

Huh, I wasn't addressing that issue of right/wrong at all. (And there you go again with your certainty that it's illegal, despite the State who define the legality saying it wasn't.)

I was just saying I think an element in the 'don't intervene it'll provoke them' is the influence of pacifism IMO.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Can you declare war on a regime you don't recognise ?

Can we declare war on an idea or a stance?