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The housing crisis (London and beyond)

The cost to build council housing doesn't have to come from taxation. It's one of the safest uses for borrowed money there is because you have complete surity of the income it will generate. The construction cost of all that 60s/70s council housing has been long since paid off and now generates stable revenue. Do it via "arms-length public investment vehicle" bullshit if you have to keep it off Treasury books.
 
One of the things some local authorities are doing is doing a mixture of social housing build, and for sale builds - they sell off the flats and houses they build (usually on estates) and use that money to build the social housing .
 
The cost to build council housing doesn't have to come from taxation. It's one of the safest uses for borrowed money there is because you have complete surity of the income it will generate. The construction cost of all that 60s/70s council housing has been long since paid off and now generates stable revenue. Do it via "arms-length public investment vehicle" bullshit if you have to keep it off Treasury books.

This is wishful thinking Crispy. The government spends billions providing social housing. They wouldn't do that if it were possible to do it for free.
 
One of the things some local authorities are doing is doing a mixture of social housing build, and for sale builds - they sell off the flats and houses they build (usually on estates) and use that money to build the social housing .
By making one group of homeowner subsidise another group of homeowners you raise the price of housing for some and lower it for others. The only way to reduce the cost of housing for everyone is to build more housing.
 
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Rolling back to 2019 in order to align with the available data from ONS, in 2019 that 11.4 figure was £8.76bn
That represents the tiny little dark blue blip on the end of the bar in this chart:

1711543342013.png
(secondary primary sources)

It's orders of magnitude short of what's needed.

Note that the borrowing cap that practically prevented LAs from building any housing was only lifted in 2018.
 
By making one group of homeowner subsidise another group of homeowners you raise the price of housing for some and lower it for others. The only way to reduce the cost of housing for everyone is to build more housing.
You end up with more housing, private & social , if you can afford to buy, it shouldn't matter to you that the money made by the local authority was used to build housing for someone who needed social housing.
 
Rolling back to 2019 in order to align with the available data from ONS, in 2019 that 11.4 figure was £8.76bn
That represents the tiny little dark blue blip on the end of the bar in this chart:

View attachment 417499
(secondary primary sources)

It's orders of magnitude short of what's needed.

Note that the borrowing cap that practically prevented LAs from building any housing was only lifted in 2018.
I don't agree with you.

There's no need for the government to spend any money on housing development.

It doesn't spend money on food or clothing or most other needs where there is an abundant supply.

The only reason housing is so expensive is because we don't have enough of it. If we had as many houses in the south (as a proportion of the poulation) as we have up north then house prices would be the same as the are in the north. As I've said before, in Bradford you can buy a nice house for £65,000. That's what I want for London. If all our houses cost £65,000 each we'd need almost no social housing, landlords would look after their tenants better and we'd all be happier*.

*except landlords
 
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You end up with more housing, private & social , if you can afford to buy, it shouldn't matter to you that the money made by the local authority was used to build housing for someone who needed social housing.

It's more housing compared with nothing, but it's far less housing compared with a minimally regulated planning system.

If the planning system demands that one group of homeowners should cross-subsidise another then obviously that's the only type of housing that gets built.
 
The only reason housing is so expensive is because we don't have enpough of it
No, it's not the only reason. The other reason is the insatiable demand for assets from the very rich. Rental housing is a lucrative asset because it has insufficient competition due to limited social housing. We can argue about which reason is bigger. But there's only one solution that addresses both at the same time.
 
No, it's not the only reason. The other reason is the insatiable demand for assets from the very rich. Rental housing is a lucrative asset because it has insufficient competition due to limited social housing. We can argue about which reason is bigger. But there's only one solution that addresses both at the same time.
Nope.

Housing supply and demand 101.PNG

The only thing which determins price is the intersection of supply and demand. Build more and the price will fall.
 
The only thing which determins price is the intersection of supply and demand.
Yes, supply is constrained. But also demand is artificially inflated. The slope of the orange line is shallow. You need to come at the problem from both sides.
 
Yes, supply is constrained. But also demand is artificially inflated. The slope of the orange line is shallow. You need to come at the problem from both sides.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm clear that we shouldn't be telling people they can't buy property. We should just build enough so everyone can have as much as they want.

And anyway, if the incentive to buy property is that it's scarce, then that incentive disappears as we build more.
 
"Nimbyism is why you can't afford a place to live, and why you live in a stagnent economy"

I wish I was even half as articulate as this chap:

 
The cost to build council housing doesn't have to come from taxation. It's one of the safest uses for borrowed money there is because you have complete surity of the income it will generate. The construction cost of all that 60s/70s council housing has been long since paid off and now generates stable revenue. Do it via "arms-length public investment vehicle" bullshit if you have to keep it off Treasury books.
Yes, there's a myth that people who live in 'council' housing* get subsidised housing. One of the reasons it's cheaper is that any cost of borrowing has long since been paid off and, like you say, it now generates revenue.

*Often no longer council housing, due to stock transfer to ALMOs etc.
 
Good points , I do know of one case at my Borough where the leaseholder refused the offer , the block was pulled down (after they evicted the leaseholder) and the offer is still being kept for when they do accept it , lawyers are involved.

I have been heavily involved in 'decanting' it's a horrible way to describe it, impersonal, but used routinely amongst Housing folk. The largest one I was involved with was around 60 units, the tenants were given the right to return to the new blocks, and given fairly generous Home Loss payments of around £6k .
I wouldn't say home loss payments of £6k are 'fairly generous'. By the time someone's paid removal costs, to temporary accommodation they've been decanted to, and back again, plus additional expenses of buying new flooring and curtains (because they're often different sizes), then most of that home loss payment will be spent.

And it's likely they will need to buy flooring and pay to have it installed, because if housing down there is anything like it is up here, they have a policy of ripping out any flooring left by the previous tenant. Eg a friend moved out, leaving decent quality, relatively new laminate flooring, also left curtain poles and shelves, etc. Council staff came and ripped it all out.

The new tenant, a single mum, couldn't afford to replace all the good stuff that the council had ripped out.
 
Despite annoying councillors :D I prefer Councils to run Council Housing - alas it is too late to reverse some of the changes that were made in the 1990s - some councils just transferred their stock to other housing providers - not sure how it worked financially - were they bought? or did the providers take on any debt ?
I think they were bought for relatively small amounts. The ALMOs/new owners didn't take on any existing debt, because as explained previously, there's a myth about council housing being subsidised, but in actual fact, generally speaking, the costs of building had long since been paid off and council housing was now (at that time) revenue generating.

The reason why stock transfer happened for a pittance was because the councils who were getting rid of their stock, and the ALMOs/housing associations who bought them, knew that they were going to have to borrow shedloads to fund the repairs and improvements in order to bring the housing stock up to Decent Homes standard.

The costs were substantial. On our estate, they ripped out old gas fires and back boiler systems and replaced them with modern combi boiler central heating. They also installed double-glazing for most flats that didn't already have it. They also ripped out all the kitchens and bathrooms and installed new ones.

So while it might've seemed like the ALMO/housing association were getting ex-council stock for a knockdown price, in reality they were committing themselves to significant expenditure.

(I no longer keep so up to date with stuff like this, but at the time of stock transfer of our estate I was heavily involved in our local tenants and residents association.)
 
As I've explained before my definition is of NIMBY is anyone who opposes new building development, and that includes people who implicitly oppose new building by remaining silent. That is to say most people are NIMBYs because they don't speak up in favour of new buildings. Governments react to public opinion, and assume that most people don’t want more buildings. By keeping quiet NIMBYs are responsible for the shortage of housing (and commercial space). If there were more development, housing would be better and cheaper. Households would be less crowded and better off financially.
That's not how objections to planning applications work.

Planning committees don't look at applications and say:

'Well, we've got an objection from a neighbour who says the new block of flats with spoil their view of the park, but given no one has a legal right to a view of a park, that's not something we can consider grounds to refuse the application. There's an objection from another neighbour who says they work night shifts and the building noise during the day will disrupt their sleep, but there's no right to sleep during the day, and so long as the contractors don't do noisy work before 8am or after 7pm Mon-Fri, and comply with environment department regulations, then there are no grounds to refuse the application.

Additionally, a notification letter of the planning application was sent to 47 other householders, none of whom have formally objected. However, as they haven't written in support of this application, we have to take into consideration their implicit opposition to this building project, as evidenced by their remaining silent.

Given that we have a total of 49 objections to this planning application, made up of two formal objections and 47 silent objections, we're going to refuse it.'

I mean, lol. Planning committees can't take into account many of the actual objections they receive, because a neighbour doesn't have a legal right to the light being blocked by an extension or whatever. So they're certainly not going to take into account imaginary silent objections.
 
The free market isn't controlled. That's why it's free. It accepts that people act in their own self interest.



It's better to trust in a system which accepts that people act in their own self interest, than in a system which requires people's generosity and altruism.
So that's why privatising utilities companies worked so well, then? Introducing competition and choice really does result in lower prices for the consumer, doesn't it? Except when it doesn't.
 
Kristian Niemietz is an editorial director at the Institute of Economics Affairs which is a right-wing, free market think tank.

And Tulstar is right wing free marketer.

To add Tulstar sees themselves as socially progressive. Its people who are anti gentrification and are "nimbys" who are reactionary.
 
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Kristian Niemietz is an editorial director at the Institute of Economics Affairs which is a right-wing, free market think tank.

Tulster, I recommend you read Late Soviet Britain: why materialist utopias fail by Abby Innes.
She's just another anti-capitalist lefty, I'm afraid. Just because Thatcher used some of the same phrases as Lenin doesn't mean that they are in any way the same. It's a false equivalence. You can disprove most of her thinking through casual observation. Britain is a wonderfully prosperous country by most standards. And anyway it has nothing to do with housing in London and the South east.
 
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That's not how objections to planning applications work.

Planning committees don't look at applications and say:

'Well, we've got an objection from a neighbour who says the new block of flats with spoil their view of the park, but given no one has a legal right to a view of a park, that's not something we can consider grounds to refuse the application. There's an objection from another neighbour who says they work night shifts and the building noise during the day will disrupt their sleep, but there's no right to sleep during the day, and so long as the contractors don't do noisy work before 8am or after 7pm Mon-Fri, and comply with environment department regulations, then there are no grounds to refuse the application.

Additionally, a notification letter of the planning application was sent to 47 other householders, none of whom have formally objected. However, as they haven't written in support of this application, we have to take into consideration their implicit opposition to this building project, as evidenced by their remaining silent.

Given that we have a total of 49 objections to this planning application, made up of two formal objections and 47 silent objections, we're going to refuse it.'

I mean, lol. Planning committees can't take into account many of the actual objections they receive, because a neighbour doesn't have a legal right to the light being blocked by an extension or whatever. So they're certainly not going to take into account imaginary silent objections.
We need both a planning system which takes account of a wider range of views (including people who might want to live there), and also a general change in attitude of most people to understand that more housing is good for society. Not objecting to a planning application is a good thing to do.
 
So that's why privatising utilities companies worked so well, then? Introducing competition and choice really does result in lower prices for the consumer, doesn't it? Except when it doesn't.
Of course I'm glad BT and British Airways don't have a monopoly, but you've confused privatisation with the free market, and strayed a little off the subject of housing in London and the South East.

And once again, property in Bradford is privately owned, abundant and very cheap. We could do with more of that in London.
 
She's just another anti-capitalist lefty, I'm afraid. Just because Thatcher used some of the same phrases as Lenin doesn't mean that they are in any way the same. It's a false equivalence. You can disprove most of her thinking through casual observation. Britain is a wonderfully prosperous country by most standards. And anyway it has nothing to do with housing in London and the South east.
She doesn't mention any of those things? Abby Innes is Associate Professor of Political Economy in the European Institute at the LSE. A liberal empiricist on the political centre.

Collective resource distribution definitely relates to housing. It's a market failure that so many people are unable to have a secure, decent, affordable place to live



Late Soviet Britain: how British politics is mirroring the failings of Soviet socialism
LSE Blog 23 Jan 2024
The title of Late Soviet Britain may seem ‘‘strange and counterintuitive’’, she admits. ‘‘The Cold War and its aftermath taught us that Soviet socialism and neoliberalism (or Thatcherism in the British context) are absolute ideological opposites, and who could disagree: the everyday political values of these doctrines could not have been further apart. Ask how they understand the nature of political economic reality, however, and this dichotomy proves false.’’
On closer inspection, she argues, "both Soviet and neoliberal doctrines are based on closed-system reasoning about the political economy. They are built on purely logical arguments from utopian assumptions - axiomatic deduction - rather than on arguments from observation and reasoned analysis - or hypothetical deduction, more commonly known as the scientific method."
While neoliberal policies have been based on neoclassical theories and early Soviet economics on Marxist-Leninist sociology, "both assert that there are predetermined laws of the economy that each doctrine alone can apprehend. Furthermore, both schemes require the the operation of a universal and consistent rationality, albeit a rationality of opposing forms - a constant fraternity (Soviety) versus a constantly rational self-interest (neoliberalism)."
As Dr Innes explains, once the Soviet system moved to central planning, under Stalin, the two materialist utopias became more exact opposites, with each claiming to uphold the efficient mechanism of economic coordination - the supposedly efficient central plan versus the supposedly efficient price mechanism of an increasingly "free" market. "Unfortunately for us," continues Dr Innes, "both Soviet and neoliberal doctrines are utopian political philosophies dressed up as science."
 
She doesn't mention any of those things? Abby Innes is Associate Professor of Political Economy in the European Institute at the LSE. A liberal empiricist on the political centre.

Collective resource distribution definitely relates to housing. It's a market failure that so many people are unable to have a secure, decent, affordable place to live



Late Soviet Britain: how British politics is mirroring the failings of Soviet socialism
LSE Blog 23 Jan 2024


No. She's an irrelevant anti-capitalist lefty with silly trousers. Does she even have a view on The housing crisis (London and beyond)?
 
She doesn't mention any of those things? Abby Innes is Associate Professor of Political Economy in the European Institute at the LSE. A liberal empiricist on the political centre.

Collective resource distribution definitely relates to housing. It's a market failure that so many people are unable to have a secure, decent, affordable place to live



Late Soviet Britain: how British politics is mirroring the failings of Soviet socialism
LSE Blog 23 Jan 2024


Interesting article. Reading it and was reminded of Adam Curtis documentaries.
 
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