Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Spymaster]

A teacher has been beheaded in Paris in what Macron is calling an "Islamic terrorism incident".

Early reports say that he was a history and geography teacher who was giving a talk about freedom of expression to pupils and showing some of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons that upset some muslims prior to the attack on their offices in 2015. There is some context in that there's a trial going on in France at the moment regarding the Charlie Hebdo attack.

Clearly nobody will condone the execution of teachers in the street and fortunately the scumbag with the knife was shot dead by police but is it on for teachers to be showing kids obviously seriously controversial cartoons anyway? Apparently this chap told the muslim children in his class that they should leave if they thought they would be offended. It's early days so the usual caveats around not jumping to conclusions too soon apply, but if it's as reported isn't this unwisely inflammatory; actually showing the cartoons in a school lesson and telling the muslim kids to do one if they don't like it?

Macron calls Paris beheading 'Islamist terrorist attack'

The teacher killed in a Paris suburb reportedly showed his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Edie]

Yes it’s inflammatory but isn’t that like the entire point.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It's certainly not something I would do.

 

[existentialist]

Tricky, though, isn't it? If you don't do something because violent extremists might take exception, you're "giving in to the terrorists"...but there's an argument to be made in favour of freedom of speech, too.

Perhaps it would be best if that argument wasn't being made by individual teachers, but was a more general societal norm.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If taking offence at slights on deeply held beliefs usually led to execution you have to wonder how many urbanites would still be alive in a couple of weeks.
The basic point to make is really quite simple. Why should special treatment be given to intolerant, patriarchal, misogynistic, authoritarian, religious belief systems? What is so special about them, other than the willingness of some of their adherents to slaughter other people willy-billy?

 

[Pickman's model]

The basic point to make is really quite simple. Why should special treatment be given to intolerant, patriarchal, misogynistic, authoritarian, religious belief systems? What is so special about them, other than the willingness of some of their adherents to slaughter other people willy-billy?

so on the one hand you have the strain of islam which sees chopping someone's head off in defence of the religion as a good thing, on the other you have the french state which vilifies public displays of islamic belief like wearing the hijab, and which is viciously brutal and racist eg to people in the suburban estates. on the one hand you have brutality petty in comparison to that of state power, disgusting tho it is, on the other the great power wielded around the world by the french state which despite affecting to be an anarchist you don't criticise here. I am not sure that the supposed tact shown by the teacher was so good after all - would jewish pupils being given the option of leaving a discussion about the protocols of the elders of zion be held up as tolerance? did this teacher have to pick something widely felt inflammatory or to act in the way he did? I tend towards a plague on all your houses, finding nothing greatly attractive about the provocation, the reaction, or the context in which it occurred

 

[IC3D]

What if a teacher showed pornography to a class of 13,14 year olds and framed it as liberalism?

 

[kebabking]

What if a teacher showed pornography to a class of 13,14 year olds and framed it as liberalism?

Showing Pornography to 13/14 YO's would be illegal, but taking the piss put of historical figures/people's ideas isn't?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

What if a teacher showed pornography to a class of 13,14 year olds and framed it as liberalism?

Off with his head?

 

[IC3D]

Showing Pornography to 13/14 YO's would be illegal, but taking the piss put of historical figures/people's ideas isn't?

Some places it is illegal. Many people think what he did is just as disgusting. Do you think Muslims are less cultured than you?

 

[LDC]

What if a teacher showed pornography to a class of 13,14 year olds and framed it as liberalism?

Just explain to me why that quite weird statement has got any relevance to the topic we're discussing here?

 

[IC3D]

Just explain to me why that quite weird statement has got any relevance to the topic we're discussing here?

It's clear just think it through yourself.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

so on the one hand you have the strain of islam which sees chopping someone's head off in defence of the religion as a good thing, on the other you have the french state which vilifies public displays of islamic belief like wearing the hijab, and which is viciously brutal and racist eg to people in the suburban estates. on the one hand you have brutality petty in comparison to that of state power, disgusting tho it is, on the other the great power wielded around the world by the french state which despite affecting to be an anarchist you don't criticise here. I am not sure that the supposed tact shown by the teacher was so good after all - would jewish pupils being given the option of leaving a discussion about the protocols of the elders of zion be held up as tolerance? did this teacher have to pick something widely felt inflammatory? I tend towards a plague on all your houses, finding nothing greatly attractive about the provocation, the reaction, or the context in which it occurred

Well this thread is about the beheading of a school teacher who showed his pupils some cartoons, so I didn't feel a compulsion to talk about the power of the French state.

 

[redsquirrel]

Showing Pornography to 13/14 YO's would be illegal, but taking the piss put of historical figures/people's ideas isn't?

If 'taking the piss out of people's ideas' amounted to discrimination then it could be illegal and certainly would be unprofessional.
I'm not saying this particular teachers actions did/didn't amount to discrimination, I don't have enough information. But it is pretty easy to conceive how a similar situation could be discriminatory.

 

[klang]

Well this thread is about the beheading of a school teacher who showed his pupils some cartoons, so I didn't feel a compulsion to talk about the power of the French state.

It plays into it though.

 

[kebabking]

Some places it is illegal...

It was illegal in France. What the legal and moral position is outside of France is an irrelevance.

I think lots of things are disgusting, as do many of the (admittedly few) Muslims I know - yet none of them, or me, have decapitated anyone because we are disgusted by the cartoons or pictures they chose to look at.

Perhaps you ought to have a think about the thoughts, demands and sensibilities you ascribe to several billion people...

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It plays into it though.

Yeah, but there's a limit to how much I can type on a Saturday morning while eating crumpets.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well this thread is about the beheading of a school teacher who showed his pupils some cartoons, so I didn't feel a compulsion to talk about the power of the French state.

You mean you prefer to ignore the context. You think the state has nothing to do with education in France?

 

[nogojones]

Tricky, though, isn't it? If you don't do something because violent extremists might take exception, you're "giving in to the terrorists"...but there's an argument to be made in favour of freedom of speech, too.

Perhaps it would be best if that argument wasn't being made by individual teachers, but was a more general societal norm.

Showing Pornography to 13/14 YO's would be illegal, but taking the piss put of historical figures/people's ideas isn't?

Or maybe telling some racist jokes, just to demonstrate the wonders of free speech

 

[TopCat]

Made me remember let's draw Mo day about ten years ago.

 

[LDC]

Or maybe telling some racist jokes, just to demonstrate the wonders of free speach

Not really similar IMO, more like giving examples of racist speech, attitudes, and behaviour (with warnings before) and then having a discussion on that.

 

[IC3D]

Go then show one of the Muslim people you know a picture of. Mohumed and ask how he feels about a teacher doing it to his kids in school? kebabking

 

[killer b]

The Charlie Hebdo massacre is an important part of recent French history, and tbh it would be difficult to teach it in the classroom without showing the kids the cartoons. Fair enough to invite children who might not want to see them to step outside, but there's no good argument for not showing them at all.

 

[chilango]

I was in an undergraduate lecture on moral panics last year and anti-pornography laws were a central part of the presentation. The lecturer didn't feel the need to show clips from the offending works though.

 

[danny la rouge]

is it on for teachers to be showing kids obviously seriously controversial cartoons anyway?

Yes, of course, if it’s relevant to the class they’re taking, which this seemingly was. And as you correctly say, the cartoons are currently back in the news.

I don’t know if you studied history at school, but we discussed all sorts of controversial material. Antisemitic Nazi posters, for example.

As for comparing that to showing kids pornography, that’s just stupid.

 

[Raheem]

The Charlie Hebdo massacre is an important part of recent French history, and tbh it would be difficult to teach it in the classroom without showing the kids the cartoons. Fair enough to invite children who might not want to see them to step outside, but there's no good argument for not showing them at all.

I think if you find yourself inviting part of the class to step outside, you ought to be wondering if your lesson plan is all that.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You mean you prefer to ignore the context. You think the state has nothing to do with education in France?

I don't mean to ignore the context, but there's more than one context here. For instance , the context of worldwide killing of people who offend Islam by pictures, by writing, by spoken word etc. Someone in Denmark publishes a cartoon and suddenly people die in Pakistan. Nowt to do with the French state. Salman Rushdie writes a book to which the Ayatollah takes offence and suddenly zillions of the faithful are seemingly uptight about a publication they will never read. Nowt to do with the French state.
French anarchists used to have the slogan ' ni dieu, ni maitre', neither God nor masters. I have no quarrel with that approach at all. Others may do. But I don't think we should reinstate the crime of blasphemy by the back door.

 

[chilango]

Yes, of course, if it’s relevant to the class they’re taking, which this seemingly was. And as you correctly say, the cartoons are currently back in the news.

I don’t know if you studied history at school, but we discussed all sorts of controversial material. Antisemitic Nazi posters, for example.

As for comparing that to showing kids pornography, that’s just stupid.

Why?

 

[danny la rouge]

Why?

Why what? Why is the pornography comparison stupid?

Because I can imagine a well designed class for kids that discusses the cartoons in an appropriate manner, whereas showing kids pornography no so much.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't mean to ignore the context, but there's more than one context here. For instance , the context of worldwide killing of people who offend Islam by pictures, by writing, by spoken word etc. Someone in Denmark publishes a cartoon and suddenly people die in Pakistan. Nowt to do with the French state. Salman Rushdie writes a book to which the Ayatollah takes offence and suddenly zillions of the faithful are seemingly uptight about a publication they will never read. Nowt to do with the French state.
French anarchists used to have the slogan ' ni dieu, ni maitre', neither God nor masters. I have no quarrel with that approach at all. Others may do. But I don't think we should reinstate the crime of blasphemy by the back door.

so now what is done in a french school by a french teacher has nothing to do with the french state. The killing has been described by the education minister as an attack on the french republic. As I understand it the teacher was a state employee. But nothing to do with the french state.

How do you work that one out?