Taoism

[october_lost]

Must have been about a 7 years ago an ex lent me the Tao of Pooh, and while I read it, I dont think I took it very seriously. But since Ive taken to martial arts recently and seeing that Rudolph Rocker along with others mentions him in his history of Anarchist thought, I thought it was worth another look. And have to say its interesting, its not a religion as such, not by definition, and it contains insights which appear both personal and political.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

Surprised theres no history of this on urban75. Anyone any thoughts?

 

[maomao]

Surprised theres no history of this on urban75. Anyone any thoughts?

There was a thread on it about three years ago but I scared everyone off it by putting up bits of the Chinese and seeing if anyone wanted a go at translating.

There's at least one scholer who believes the Dao De Jing is essentially a martial arts manual and nothing else. Personally I believe it's just a book of pretty sayings that doesn't add up to much. If you want real philosophical Taoism try Zhuang Zi (various spellings available, you might see it as Chuang Tzu).

 

[spring-peeper]

I have a book on Taoism. I read it when I feel a little of center and it helps me bring things back into perspective.

 

[Sunspots]

There was a thread on it about three years ago but I scared everyone off it by putting up bits of the Chinese and seeing if anyone wanted a go at translating.

That was one of the few U75 threads I ever kept. I've just dug it out. It's from Dec 2002.

Edit: this link to a translation was included (by Ruby Toogood) in that original thread:

http://www.edepot.com/tao4.html

 

[dada]

not a religion, but a philosophy like buddhism, imo.

crazy instructor we had, we had to read Tao Te Ching in a design class. used to have it in small pocket size, very convenient.
one of the quotes i like was 'if you care about other people's approval, you'll be their prisoner'. how true.

There was a thread on it about three years ago but I scared everyone off it by putting up bits of the Chinese and seeing if anyone wanted a go at translating.

as the matter of fact, i downloaded the chinese version of it recently. i bet i'll need an english version side by side with it in order to fully understand the words. isn't it odd?

 

[118118]

I don't get this buddhism isn't a religion idea. Why isn't it a religion - other than a creator God, what sets it apart from other religions?

is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine; and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions and rituals associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe.

Religion from wikipedia. So why on earth do people say it isn't so often?

 

[Fruitloop]

There's no element of faith in buddhism - you're not asked to believe anything purely on authority, either in terms of cosmology or ethics.

Can't say I agree about the Dao De Jing - the style is far more compressed than Zhuang Zi (which is also a very insightful book), but it contains in that small kernel the outline of a whole philosophy, and one that is both highly complex and widely applicable at that.

 

[spring-peeper]

The definition you posted had the word "and" in it.

For Buddism to be a religion, BOTH have to be true.

 

[october_lost]

There was a thread on it about three years ago but I scared everyone off it by putting up bits of the Chinese and seeing if anyone wanted a go at translating.

There's at least one scholer who believes the Dao De Jing is essentially a martial arts manual and nothing else. Personally I believe it's just a book of pretty sayings that doesn't add up to much. If you want real philosophical Taoism try Zhuang Zi (various spellings available, you might see it as Chuang Tzu).

Thanks maomao, I think the book is great and Im surprised how much of it makes sense and is a very practical political guide. The idea of cause and effect, humility and the focus of a community of human being co-operating sounds not utopian, but a fragment of everyday life. Infact a read one verse and I concluded that writer had to be an anarcho-syndicalist

 

[Brainaddict]

not a religion, but a philosophy like buddhism, imo.

Have you ever been to South East Asia?

 

[118118]

you're not asked to believe anything purely on authority, either in terms of cosmology or ethics.

Where did I mention authority, or "faith" or that "faith" requires authority. Do you have "faith" in the anarchist movement?

The definition you posted had the word "and" in it.

Whih one of these does Buddhism not involve . IMHO this is one of the most stupid arguments there is. Ignorant hippies

 

[maomao]

Thanks maomao, I think the book is great and Im surprised how much of it makes sense and is a very practical political guide. The idea of cause and effect, humility and the focus of a community of human being co-operating sounds not utopian, but a fragment of everyday life. Infact a read one verse and I concluded that writer had to be an anarcho-syndicalist

It was a written at possibly the most violent and unsettled period of China's history. The essence of the book is how not to get yourself killed. The language is pretty but it's essentiallyt a selfish philosphy. If you start applying the ideas in it to communities rather than individuals you might end up with something approaching anarcho syndicalism but it's essentially a selfish philosophy.

 

[Brainaddict]

Nice philosophy you got going there:
http://www.thai-software.com/ThaiPostcardImages/Temple.Emerald.Buddha.jpg



More serious philosophy business:

 

[october_lost]

It was a written at possibly the most violent and unsettled period of China's history. The essence of the book is how not to get yourself killed. The language is pretty but it's essentiallyt a selfish philosphy. If you start applying the ideas in it to communities rather than individuals you might end up with something approaching anarcho syndicalism but it's essentially a selfish philosophy.

I cant fathom why you make it out to be selfish, at the risk of rehashing out large sections of the text, my copy, refers to humility, community, shuns violence against weaker nations and talks of leaders in a negative way. Some dont flow the same, I can appreciate the nuisance of translating

See here 19

Embrace simplicity.
Put others first.
Desire little.

And 17 is a subtle rejection of the role of leader, in favour of masses completing tasks for themselves....

The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.....The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.
When she has accomplished her task,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"

 

[chilango]

The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.....The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.
When she has accomplished her task,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"

I used this quote (and a few others) for essays during teacher training.

If you like this stuff, try Heraclitus´s writings. Double

 

[dada]

Have you ever been to South East Asia?

exactly Brainy.
when a philosophy becomes a religion, it's the most dangerous, and indeed an lucrative business.

same goes for theory. look at how looney the 'Darwinians' are when someone questions the evolution theory. no one can challenge it without getting fired or attacked. (this happened in america)

 

[In Bloom]

And 17 is a subtle rejection of the role of leader, in favour of masses completing tasks for themselves....

To be honest, that read more to me as "The masses are so thick, you can keep them happy if you fool them into think they made all the decisions themselves"

 

[maomao]

I cant fathom why you make it out to be selfish, at the risk of rehashing out large sections of the text, my copy, refers to humility, community, shuns violence against weaker nations and talks of leaders in a negative way. Some dont flow the same, I can appreciate the nuisance of translating

See here 19


And 17 is a subtle rejection of the role of leader, in favour of masses completing tasks for themselves....

I;m having a busy night here; I;ll get back to you tommorrow. I like slow moving forums.

 

[118118]

And 17 is a subtle rejection of the role of leader, in favour of masses completing tasks for themselves....
Quote:
The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.....The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.

It doesn't seem to sugest that the masses are permitted to organize their own structure though, does it? Edit: That is fucking weird.

 

[Fruitloop]

Have you ever been to South East Asia?

I don't reckon the fact that something is used as a religion necessarily makes it one. In Western society Art was used in a religious fashion, but I don't think that means that Art is inherently religious. Ditto evolution.

 

[Brainaddict]

I don't reckon the fact that something is used as a religion necessarily makes it one. In Western society Art was used in a religious fashion, but I don't think that means that Art is inherently religious. Ditto evolution.

But you might as well say that the fact that Christ's philosophy was used in a religion doesn't mean Christianity is a religion. In fact it's pretty much the exactly the same thing.
If anything the fact that Buddha probably meant to start a new religion while Jesus didn't suggests that it would be even more true of Christianity...

 

[blossie33]

I don't in any way profess to know that much about it but I think there is a difference in believing in the Tao (or essence of life) and 'taoism'.
Taoism is more of a religion which evolved afterwards and has various rituals attached to it.

 

[Fruitloop]

But you might as well say that the fact that Christ's philosophy was used in a religion doesn't mean Christianity is a religion. In fact it's pretty much the exactly the same thing.
If anything the fact that Buddha probably meant to start a new religion while Jesus didn't suggests that it would be even more true of Christianity...

Jesus was already in a religion you weirdo!

 

[Brainaddict]

Jesus was already in a religion you weirdo!

He didn't mean to start a new one, was what I said, and what I meant.

 

[Fruitloop]

Why would that make it less of a religion, given that he was explicitly religious from the outset? Whereas we're told that the Buddha was shielded from all such things until he left home and saw an old man, a sick person and a sannyasi?

In any case, the laws that Jesus gave were supposed to supercede the existing ones (i.e. in the Tanakh and the Mishnah), so in an important sense the old religion was being replaced. Speculation about the intentions of someone whose very existence is disputed seems a pointless undertaking to me...

On the subject of Taoism, I would say that the Tao is neither sacred, supernatural nor divine, so it's outside the consideration of what is normally termed religion. However, that there does exist a (sort of) organised religion going by the name Taoism is indisputable.

 

[Brainaddict]

Whereas we're told that the Buddha was shielded from all such things until he left home and saw an old man, a sick person and a sannyasi?

Oh god. You cast doubt on the existence of Jesus yet believe the story of the Buddha's origins strongly enough to quote it as evidence in an argument like this?
I take it all back - Buddhism isn't a religion at all. Oh no.

 

[Fruitloop]

I don't believe the story of the Buddha's upbringing. The point is that this is the way it's presented - i.e. as the conclusions of someone who is confronting existential conditions de novo, rather than someone who was debating with the priests in the temple at an early age.

 

[Brainaddict]

The point is that this is the way it's presented

 

[Fruitloop]

That was kind of why I prefaced it with the phrase '"we're told" in the first instance, tbh.

 

[october_lost]

To be honest, that read more to me as "The masses are so thick, you can keep them happy if you fool them into think they made all the decisions themselves"

In the context of the verse, 'the best leader' is IMHO not a leader, I think its a subtle criticism.

(17)

The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.
The next best is a leader who is loved and praised.
Next comes the one who is feared.
The worst one is the leader that is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
they will become untrustworthy.

The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly.
When she has accomplished her task,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"

The Tao seems to me to be a call for a more compassionate, harminous society free from ideology, its pretty scathing on wars, consumer excess etc. The 'some are meant to lead' reminds me of a quote by Bakunin about how even amoungsts the free, some still take orders and others give them....

(29)

Do you want to rule the world and control it?
I don't think it can ever be done.

The world is sacred vessel
and it can not be controlled.
You will only it make it worse if you try.
It may slip through your fingers and disappear.

Some are meant to lead,
and others are meant to follow;
Some must always strain,
and others have an easy time;
Some are naturally big and strong,
and others will always be small;
Some will be protected and nurtured,
and others will meet with destruction.

The Master accepts things as they are,
and out of compassion avoids extravagance,
excess and the extremes.