SPGB

[Knotted]

Small change in words from 'originate' to 'unconnected'. And no butchers I'm not going to argue over an assertion you made which is blatantly untrue. And if you want to call me a liar its up to you to prove it.

Well that's informative.

 

[Knotted]

By the way here's a more juicy quote for you:

For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly.

I'm surprised you didn't use it. It's only a few paragraphs below the one you quoted. It's the usual one the SPGB quotes.

Note that you can clip down to make Lenin sound ridiculous:

...socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people...

 

[Knotted]

See, I know your tricks better than you do.

 

[Knotted]

If you look at concepts and understanding in isolation of the bigger picture of the social relationships they most certainly wont be rewarding. Wage labour and a market confirms there is a social relationship between buyer and seller of labour power and the creation of surplus value. This relationship exists under state capitalism.

That's because a free market is required for state capitalist features of the economy.

 

[Knotted]

Gravediggers, why don't you address some of the points raised in Robin Cox's letter rather than plough this tired furrough of quote mining Lenin and blathering about "state capitalism"? I think it would be much more interesting.

 

[Knotted]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch32.htm

By the way, Gravediggers, make sure you read all of that. It's got a few surprises for you.

 

[butchersapron]

Surprises don't count. The boat is steady.

 

[Knotted]

Even during protracted, violent, and difficult transformations?

 

[butchersapron]

Especially then - haven't you read the lit?

 

[Knotted]

Am I right in thinking that

1) Social Democratic Federation was part of the Second International
2) The SPGB was a split from the SDF

 

[Proper Tidy]

Am I right in thinking that

1) Social Democratic Federation was part of the Second International
2) The SPGB was a split from the SDF

Yep

 

[Knotted]

Thought so. What was that big fuss kicked up by GD about??

 

[Proper Tidy]

Thought so. What was that big fuss kicked up by GD about??

I assumed he was being pedantic, in as much as the SPGB as a party didn't originate directly in the 2nd International - which ignores how their tradition came about, of course.

 

[Knotted]

That was some aggressive pedantry!

 

[Gravediggers]

Thought so. What was that big fuss kicked up by GD about??

The fuss has you put it was over an untruth you stated.

Both Lenin & the Bolsheviks and the SPGB had their origins in the Second International. They both took their conceptions from the same source.

The SPGB was formed because of the Second International endorsing the class collaboration of the european and british members (the SDF) and the reformism of the SDF. They may have taken some of their conceptions from the Second International but they most certainly did not endorse their activity.

I think a retraction is appropriate.

 

[Gravediggers]

Gravediggers, why don't you address some of the points raised in Robin Cox's letter rather than plough this tired furrough of quote mining Lenin and blathering about "state capitalism"? I think it would be much more interesting.

I detect a control freak at work here. Try Robbo perhaps he would oblige your gratification.

 

[Gravediggers]

That's because a free market is required for state capitalist features of the economy.

State capitalism does not require a 'free market' just a market and competition between enterprises will do. The market is not free, indeed state regulation and competition ensures capitalism sets its own boundaries on how the market operates.

 

[Knotted]

The fuss has you put it was over an untruth you stated.

The SPGB was formed because of the Second International endorsing the class collaboration of the european and british members (the SDF) and the reformism of the SDF. They may have taken some of their conceptions from the Second International but they most certainly did not endorse their activity.

I think a retraction is appropriate.

You agree with me that the SPGB took some of their conceptions from the SI, but you think I should retract?

I've no idea what you're so worked up about.

 

[Knotted]

I detect a control freak at work here. Try Robbo perhaps he would oblige your gratification.

Kinky.

 

[Knotted]

Gd, if you're going to snear at robbo, you should appreciate that he has been the best defender of the SPGB on this thread. He might not be completely accurate when it comes to the SPGB's positions but he has defended them far better than you have and far less evasively than the other SPGB members have. You ought to be thanking him for his help.

 

[Gravediggers]

Originally Posted by Gravediggers View Post
The fuss has you put it was over an untruth you stated.

The SPGB was formed because of the Second International endorsing the class collaboration of the european and british members (the SDF) and the reformism of the SDF. They may have taken some of their conceptions from the Second International but they most certainly did not endorse their activity.

I think a retraction is appropriate.

You agree with me that the SPGB took some of their conceptions from the SI, but you think I should retract?

I've no idea what you're so worked up about.

Here is your original comment.

Of course you might regard Lenin cynically and say he didn't really mean what he said. But you cannot deny what he said. It is simply a matter of undeniable fact that what Lenin called the "first phase of socialism" is exactly what the SPGB call "socialism".

It shouldn't be too surprising either. It is not some sort of coincidence. Both Lenin & the Bolsheviks and the SPGB had their origins in the Second International. They both took their conceptions from the same source.

The use of the word, 'origins' clearly implies the SPGB are an ofshoot of the SI when in fact we were not even members of that organisation who we had condemned has a bunch of renegades and class collaborators. Agreed, we took *some* of the conceptions regarding socialism from the SI but by no means all, for other individual socialist organisations also had an impact on our formation. In fact there was common agreement amongst working class organisations on socialism being a, 'classless, stateless, moneyless and common ownership society.

Our origins come directly from the Workers International Association, commonly referred to has the 'First International', where Clause 5. of our principles, 'That this emancipation must be the work of the working class itself ' can be traced back to that organisation.

The fallout in the SI came over the arguments on how to get from capitalism to socialism. Like now it was basically over the question of reforms or revolution. And to the credit of the SPGB they resolved the problem by accepting reforms were necessary for the working class to improve their conditions and circumstances, but this did not mean a revolutionary organisation had to support or oppose reforms. And to deviate from this position involved accepting the political structure of capitalism and by default involvement across class lines.

Or to put it another way going to bed with the class enemy. The dangers of taking sides were apparent even then. With class collaboration becoming the norm and inevitably put the prospect of revolution by the working class on the back burner.

 

[Knotted]

But you were an offshoot of a group in the SI?

 

[Gravediggers]

Suggesting some form of control - we'll need to set up factories to do this. Won't the SPBG have disbanded by then, so who decides what to set up and where?

The community as a whole, who else?

Yes but we need the infrastructure to do that - isn't there going to have to be a transition period when reforms will need to be made and the CSP plants constructed before we can all start working whenever we feel like it? That would seem a bit 'reformist', though.

The transition is taking place in the here and now with socialists planning and preparing for the transformation. And the nearer we get to socialism the more detail will go into this planning and preparation. So your question on reforms wont arise with socialists more concerned on adapting the means of production to meet our needs.

P.s I've no idea what CSP stands for.

 

[Gravediggers]

But you were an offshoot of a group in the SI?

Yes the SDF but even the SDF did not originate from the SI.

 

[Gravediggers]

Gd, if you're going to snear at robbo, you should appreciate that he has been the best defender of the SPGB on this thread. He might not be completely accurate when it comes to the SPGB's positions but he has defended them far better than you have and far less evasively than the other SPGB members have. You ought to be thanking him for his help.

I'm not in the habit of snearing at people with whom I have a common interest, robbo being one of them. I have in a past post thanked him for his intervention on this and other threads. Note I did use the word 'perhaps' in my original comment on your attempt at control freakery in the knowledge what the response from Robbo is likely to be. He's well known for picking his own subject matter without being dictated to from other sources.

 

[butchersapron]

He is legend

 

[Knotted]

I'm not in the habit of snearing at people with whom I have a common interest, robbo being one of them. I have in a past post thanked him for his intervention on this and other threads. Note I did use the word 'perhaps' in my original comment on your attempt at control freakery in the knowledge what the response from Robbo is likely to be. He's well known for picking his own subject matter without being dictated to from other sources.

I have no idea what Robbo's response is likely to be.

 

[Knotted]

Fair point about working class self-emancipation btw.

 

[Gravediggers]

I have no idea what Robbo's response is likely to be.

Which means you've got a bit of a problem. Can't help you with that I'm afraid.

 

[Gravediggers]

Fair point about working class self-emancipation btw.

Where exactly, because I'm in the habit of mention the subject pretty frequently.