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SPGB

So we're back to this drivel then?

Self education of the working class by the more advanced members of the class aka the SPGB
 
JimW said:
Or maybe he, like me, just disagrees with you and your bizarre take on what class consciousness and the class for itself might mean. The self-education of the class comes from our lived experience of the class war, not having the best theory polished with knobs on (let alone this lash-up you're peddling).
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But butchers take on the class struggle stops at the gateway for reforms, for he fails to acknowledge that class struggle also consists of a revolutionary approach. To him this is always a waste of time and effort. This in itself is a denial of what is taking place in the real world.
 
FreddyB said:
So we're back to this drivel then?

Self education of the working class by the more advanced members of the class aka the SPGB
Click to expand...

And how does this explain the many instances of workers becoming class conscious without even being in touch with the SPGB? Indeed, there have been quite a few instances in our experience where the class conscious worker have deliberately made the effort to seek out an organisation which reflects their class consciousness. Happily, they have come across the SPGB to confirm they were not in isolation and that there were workers who had reached exactly reached the same conclusion.

Class consciousness does not arise because the SPGB says so, but from life experiences and a basic understanding that capitalism is not in our interests.
 
Gravediggers said:
I have no idea, but I imagine so. Why do you ask, and is it bothering the staff at urban75 that we have turned out to be so popular with the number of views (coming up for 11,00)?
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We don't have "staff" and the amount of views is barely that significant: the "The Great MS Paint Album Cover Thread" received almost as many, and the "featured fuckwit farrago" managed over seven times as many views!
 
butchersapron said:
I said exactly and explicitly - cast out of the ranks of the 'advanced workers', out of those who have class consciousness. It's not complicated. I'm not talking about SPGB membership at all. (Luckily for the class) And you really do not get the point do you, you genuinely don't - and this is why your own inherent vanguardism manages to elude you so easily. That you define class consciousness as agreeing with the positions that you've already worked up on behalf of the working class - inside or outside of the SPGB - you reduce CC down to agreeing with you and you evacuate it of any sense of self-activity or collective experience. Class consciousness becomes agreeing with you. That's a fixed game and it's one you damn other left groups for sharing in.
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We have not worked out class consciousness on behalf of the working class they do that for themselves through their self-activity and collective experience. We have always stated this as an obvious fact of life. Has for agreement this is by its very nature a unity of purpose, so whats wrong with that?
 
Gravediggers said:
We have not worked out class consciousness on behalf of the working class they do that for themselves through their self-activity and collective experience. We have always stated this as an obvious fact of life. Has for agreement this is by its very nature a unity of purpose, so whats wrong with that?
Click to expand...

You genuinely don't get it do you? You just outlined exactly what class consciousness consists of - and it consists of agreeing with you. You've worked out what it consists of prior to anything else, any self-activity by the w/c - how else could you have made the post above explicitly outlining the beliefs that class consciousness consist of if you hadn't. It now falls to the w/c to find their way to you. That's the vanguardism coming out once more.

I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean.
 
FreddyB said:
How do these things come about, what creates the situations that you describe above?
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This is exactly the same question you asked originally, and I have no intention of repeating myself.

How does capitalism come to be in crisis? It seems to me you have everything backwards.
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You don't need me to explain to you how capitalism comes to be in a crisis. Unless of course you are living in total isolation of the events of what is happening at this present moment in time. Are you in fact confirming that is indeed the present situation you find yourself in?
 
Gravediggers said:
And how does this explain the many instances of workers becoming class conscious without even being in touch with the SPGB? Indeed, there have been quite a few instances in our experience where the class conscious worker have deliberately made the effort to seek out an organisation which reflects their class consciousness. Happily, they have come across the SPGB to confirm they were not in isolation and that there were workers who had reached exactly reached the same conclusion.

Class consciousness does not arise because the SPGB says so, but from life experiences and a basic understanding that capitalism is not in our interests.
Click to expand...

You've just argued the exact opposite. That CC consists of very specific beliefs that you've already worked out for everyone else and that class must come to achieve class consciousness through agreeing with these beliefs.

Not a word about their beliefs and experience or capacities - you didn't mention a damn thing about that before, i've forced you into that after your incredibly crude post outlining how you see CC - not as an open ended process of self-understanding but a closed one one made up of agreeing with pre-formed beliefs - or dogma, more accurately.

All over the shop, full of holes and unable to see the position in which your politics puts you. Whay else do you think you have the openly vanguardist SWP supporter backing you up and libertarian communists attacking you?
 
Gravediggers said:
But butchers take on the class struggle stops at the gateway for reforms, for he fails to acknowledge that class struggle also consists of a revolutionary approach. To him this is always a waste of time and effort. This in itself is a denial of what is taking place in the real world.
Click to expand...

What on earth gives you that ridiculous idea. Is the only thread that you've ever read on here or something? Absolutely bizarre post. I understand why you've made it though - you've a centuries worth of arguments against reformism and by your mechanical stalinist logic anyone who disagrees with you must therefore be a supporter of reformism which then allows you to deploy these 100 year old arguments against reformism. Quite tawdry.
 
editor said:
We don't have "staff" and the amount of views is barely that significant: the "The Great MS Paint Album Cover Thread" received almost as many, and the "featured fuckwit farrago" managed over seven times as many views!
Click to expand...

That may be so but there is no getting away from the observation that unlike the fff thread this is a serious thread and possibly attracting a more discerning viewer who not only find it entertaining but a rather interesting take on politics in general. As for its continuing popularity only time will tell.

My apologies if you found my use of "staff" has offending. So how would you describe the people working with urban75? Workers perhaps, in a volunteer capacity? For I have no idea what the actual set up of this board is.
 
butchersapron said:
What on earth gives you that ridiculous idea. Is the only thread that you've ever read on here or something? Absolutely bizarre post. I understand why you've made it though - you've a centuries worth of arguments against reformism and by your mechanical stalinist logic anyone who disagrees with you must therefore be a supporter of reformism which then allows you to deploy these 100 year old arguments against reformism. Quite tawdry.
Click to expand...

OK butchers here's your opportunity to reveal your take on class consciousness and let this thread be the judge on your own state or understanding of class consciousness. If it helps, I promise I wont find it embarrassing.

Your pitch.
 
Gravediggers said:
This is exactly the same question you asked originally, and I have no intention of repeating myself.
Click to expand...

You answered it by describing these situations - you're like the under pants elves on south park stage one "class conscious workers" stage two "?" stage three "revolution"


Gravediggers said:
You don't need me to explain to you how capitalism comes to be in a crisis. Unless of course you are living in total isolation of the events of what is happening at this present moment in time. Are you in fact confirming that is indeed the present situation you find yourself in?
Click to expand...
I need you to explain to me your analysis of how captial comes to be in crisis because I'm not a mind reader.
 
Gravediggers said:
OK butchers here's your opportunity to reveal your take on class consciousness and let this thread be the judge on your own state or understanding of class consciousness. If it helps, I promise I wont find it embarrassing.

Your pitch.
Click to expand...

What, you've taken back your one then? The one you posted up and that we were discussing? You accept all the criticisms i made and the problems it highlighted? Cool, we move forward.

My take on class consciousness? I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all - it leads to the daft sort of stuff that you've just come up with above and if not handled properly (again, see your long above post) opens the trapdoor to all sorts of vanguardism.

I prefer to think, as i've said already now a number of times, to think in terms of individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions - Marx thought of strikes as schools of revolution, well there's many fields of experience to learn from, without having to be taught by the 'educators' or without having to come to a pre-deterermined set of ideas worked out 100 years before by the brain and memory of the class - they party.

Indeed, the SPGB's contemporary and historical marginality itself demonstrates that the w/c can and does go beyond the ideas these vanguard groups attempt to provide them with on the basis of their 'advanced consciousness' - a consciousness that appears to come into existence by nothing else than a self-selecting group of people who've applied to belong to the party. The only hope lies outside of and in rejection of the 'instillers' of consciousness. We both know that.

SPGB said:
Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to instill a majority of the working class with the level of political class consciousness we have attained.
Click to expand...
 
butchersapron said:
What, you've taken back your one then? The one you posted up and that we were discussing? You accept all the criticisms i made and the problems it highlighted? Cool, we move forward.

My take on class consciousness? I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all - it leads to the daft sort of stuff that you've just come up with above and if not handled properly (again, see your long above post) opens the trapdoor to all sorts of vanguardism.

I prefer to think, as i've said already now a number of times, to think in terms of individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions - Marx thought of strikes as schools of revolution, well there's many fields of experience to learn from, without having to be taught by the 'educators' or without having to come to a pre-deterermined set of ideas worked out 100 years before by the brain and memory of the class - they party.

Indeed, the SPGB's contemporary and historical marginality itself demonstrates that the w/c can and does go beyond the ideas these vanguard groups attempt to provide them with on the basis of their 'advanced consciousness' - a consciousness that appears to come into existence by nothing else than a self-selecting group of people who've applied to belong to the party. The only hope lies outside of and in rejection of the 'instillers' of consciousness. We both know that.
Click to expand...

"Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to instill a majority of the working class with the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

I take it the use of the word, "instill" does not fit your exacting standards on the use of the english language in this context? OK what if rewrote this text so it reads, "Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to share with a majority of the working class the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

Which I think is the approach you are advocating in that we share our collective experiences so we attain a class consciousness? But I remain assured that it will also fail to fit your exacting standards for nit-picking.
 
The SPGB are clearly some league of Yogic masters who have mastered Socialism-Fu.

(Shame on me for posting on this thread.)
 
Gravediggers said:
"Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to instill a majority of the working class with the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

I take it the use of the word, "instill" does not fit your exacting standards on the use of the english language in this context? OK what if rewrote this text so it reads, "Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to share with a majority of the working class the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

Which I think is the approach you are advocating in that we share our collective experiences so we attain a class consciousness? But I remain assured that it will also fail to fit your exacting standards for nit-picking.
Click to expand...

No, that's not really that close to what I'm advocating, which is that you recognise and drop your ridiculous vanguardist conception of class consciousness, that the idea that you are more advanced by virtue of signing up to the SPGB is itself a misunderstanding of the dynamics of class struggle and one that you have been led to precisely by your crude conception of what class consciousness is. Simply declaring that you want everyone to be as fabulous as you doesn't remove the original arrogance - if anything it throws it into even greater relief.
 
butchersapron said:
You've just argued the exact opposite. That CC consists of very specific beliefs that you've already worked out for everyone else and that class must come to achieve class consciousness through agreeing with these beliefs.

Not a word about their beliefs and experience or capacities - you didn't mention a damn thing about that before, i've forced you into that after your incredibly crude post outlining how you see CC - not as an open ended process of self-understanding but a closed one one made up of agreeing with pre-formed beliefs - or dogma, more accurately.

All over the shop, full of holes and unable to see the position in which your politics puts you. Whay else do you think you have the openly vanguardist SWP supporter backing you up and libertarian communists attacking you?
Click to expand...
Where/who is the "openly vanguardist SWP supporter backing" GD/SPGB?? Your lying again. All I have done, is invite YOU to explain YOUR position.
butchersapron said:
What, you've taken back your one then? The one you posted up and that we were discussing? You accept all the criticisms i made and the problems it highlighted? Cool, we move forward.

My take on class consciousness? I'm not sure that i agree with the class consciousness model at all - it leads to the daft sort of stuff that you've just come up with above and if not handled properly (again, see your long above post) opens the trapdoor to all sorts of vanguardism.

I prefer to think, as i've said already now a number of times, to think in terms of individual or collective reflections on shared experiences, relations, problems, needs, solutions - Marx thought of strikes as schools of revolution, well there's many fields of experience to learn from, without having to be taught by the 'educators' or without having to come to a pre-deterermined set of ideas worked out 100 years before by the brain and memory of the class - they party.

Indeed, the SPGB's contemporary and historical marginality itself demonstrates that the w/c can and does go beyond the ideas these vanguard groups attempt to provide them with on the basis of their 'advanced consciousness' - a consciousness that appears to come into existence by nothing else than a self-selecting group of people who've applied to belong to the party. The only hope lies outside of and in rejection of the 'instillers' of consciousness. We both know that.
Gravediggers said:
"Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to instill a majority of the working class with the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

I take it the use of the word, "instill" does not fit your exacting standards on the use of the english language in this context? OK what if rewrote this text so it reads, "Nevertheless, our aim includes a very important caveat: We have no intention of remaining a small organisation and to this end are committed and determined to share with a majority of the working class the level of political class consciousness we have attained."

Which I think is the approach you are advocating in that we share our collective experiences so we attain a class consciousness? But I remain assured that it will also fail to fit your exacting standards for nit-picking.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
He clearly doesn't understand YOUR position. SOOOO, clarify Butch.
 
butchersapron said:
No, that's not really that close to what I'm advocating, which is that you recognise and drop your ridiculous vanguardist conception of class consciousness, that the idea that you are more advanced by virtue of signing up to the SPGB is itself a misunderstanding of the dynamics of class struggle and one that you have been led to precisely by your crude conception of what class consciousness is. Simply declaring that you want everyone to be as fabulous as you doesn't remove the original arrogance - if anything it throws it into even greater relief.
Click to expand...

There you are AGAIN,,,, explaining what your against, not what your for.


btw, Butch accusing the people of arrogance...........:D:D:D
 
butchersapron said:
Did i fail the class consciousness test? How did i score? Did i at least beat my 59% from last time?
Click to expand...

Hi Butch
You've told us something of how class consciousness is attained, and I don't see any problem, but you've not given any opinion of what it consists of.
So what is it that's necessary to be understood, aware of, conscious of to become class conscious?

That's a fair question, so a fair answer would be appreciated.
 
butchersapron said:
No, that's not really that close to what I'm advocating, which is that you recognise and drop your ridiculous vanguardist conception of class consciousness, that the idea that you are more advanced by virtue of signing up to the SPGB is itself a misunderstanding of the dynamics of class struggle and one that you have been led to precisely by your crude conception of what class consciousness is. Simply declaring that you want everyone to be as fabulous as you doesn't remove the original arrogance - if anything it throws it into even greater relief.
Click to expand...

OK you are not satisfied with the use of the terms instilling or sharing, that being the case it leads us right back to what robbo asked you some posts previously: Define what you mean by vanguardism/vanguardist. Until then I see no point in engaging in this particular discussion any further.

Your pitch butchers.
 
dannysp said:
Hi Butch
You've told us something of how class consciousness is attained, and I don't see any problem, but you've not given any opinion of what it consists of.
So what is it that's necessary to be understood, aware of, conscious of to become class conscious?

That's a fair question, so a fair answer would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Yeh, come on Butch,,,,, show us yours, the SPGB have shown you their's.:eek:

To be fair to the SPGB, they have made crystal clear their position, why can't you Butch?
 
Gravediggers said:
OK you are not satisfied with the use of the terms instilling or sharing, that being the case it leads us right back to what robbo asked you some posts previously: Define what you mean by vanguardism/vanguardist. Until then I see no point in engaging in this particular discussion any further.

Your pitch butchers.
Click to expand...
I don't think he can make you understand why in his oppinion you are a 'vanguardist', until you understand his position on consciousness.

Hope that help's.:(
 
Gravediggers said:
Define what you mean by vanguardism/vanguardist. Until then I see no point in engaging in this particular discussion any further.
Click to expand...
he's already done so, in childishly simply language. The point surely is that you just don't want to get it, do you?
 
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