SPGB

[1%er]

There is no agreement with the reformist left and the socialist alternative whatsoever. Indeed, they would be quite satisfied with a Scandinavian style social democracy or state capitalism for they would eagerly accept the crumbs either system offers. Socialists however, demand the bakery and the land which produces the corn or wheat.

Yes that is why I used the terms "Class/Socialist/libertarian politics" in my first post and didn't use the term "left"

Socialism will come through the use of force, but fortunately its not the type of force you imagine. Just think on this. Any society which is brought about through violent means can only survive through the continual use of violence. On the other hand, any society which is brought about through mainly peaceful means will survive through cooperation, unity of purpose, solidarity and a sense of responsibility to themselves and others and towards the environment. I've stated in previous posts that if a violent minority tried to impose their rule on the democratic majority they will be dealt with for socialists are not pacifists.

(bit in bold) I'm not sure history shows that to be the case

In answer to your question, you avoid the dictatorship of the proletariat by chucking such outdated theories in the dustbin where they belong. And while you are at it you can do the same with the theory of perpetual revolution, or to put it more accurately permanent revolution which was one of Trotsky's daydreams. The reason why they are outdated and been taken over by events is because both theories have a very strong connection with reforms, and a state of abundance. We are now in a position where we have attained sufficient reforms to move on and a state of abundance is self-evident despite the fact that capitalism is incapable of delivering the goods.

I'm glad this has been solved back in the late 60' early 70's it seemed to be the only thing people talked about

It good to know that things have moved on, I fear that getting on and enjoying my life instead of changing the world kind of got in the way of politics for me

 

[Gravediggers]

Any society which is brought about through violent means can only survive through the continual use of violence.

I'm not sure history shows that to be the case

History does show this to be the case: Russia, USA, Vietnam, Israel, China, to name but a few.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Where do you think the far left will be this time next year and how much progress will have been made between then and now?
Where do you think the far left will be in five years time and how much progress will have been made between then and now?

If not much progress will be made, why do you think this will be and what can people within the far left do to rectify this situation?
Is the far left any good at learning from its mistakes and changing both strategy and tactics according to lessons learnt from past actions and activites?

 

[FreddyB]

Yes except we are not talking about vagueness, rather the reverse, in that the politically class conscious workers are very clear and aware on the aim and objective of socialism and how to get it so to ensure the means are harmonised with the ends. For instance the nearer the revolution becomes the more planning and preparation will be taking place. In effect we wont be sitting on our arses waiting for it to happen we will actively be making it happen as a politically conscious working class. In fact this aspect of the transformation is taking place right now before our very eyes, and not just with the SPGB and the World Socialist Movement. For there are others within the libertarian tradition who discuss this very topic/subject.

Ask robbo he's got a list on who they are.

How will we know when the revolution is getting close, what signs should we look for? The SPGB busily planning for it or something else?

 

[Gravediggers]

Where do you think the far left will be this time next year and how much progress will have been made between then and now?
Where do you think the far left will be in five years time and how much progress will have been made between then and now?

If not much progress will be made, why do you think this will be and what can people within the far left do to rectify this situation?
Is the far left any good at learning from its mistakes and changing both strategy and tactics according to lessons learnt from past actions and activites?

Depends on what you mean by "far left". I much prefer the generalised description of 'left' rather than, hard left, ultra left, etc. Whichever way you describe the left they are by definition the left wing of capitalism for they all seek solutions within the framework of the profit system.

How the fuck do I know where the left will be in five weeks from now let alone five years! Have you had a look on ebay perhaps someone is selling a guessometer that's in good working order cheaply?

 

[Gravediggers]

How will we know when the revolution is getting close, what signs should we look for? The SPGB busily planning for it or something else?

Good point which comes up for discussion from time to time. One sure sign would be the capitalist class offering reforms like there was no tomorrow in order to delay the inevitable and in a futile effort to appease their dwindling support. There could also be groups within the community establishing their own political and social networks in anticipation of the transformation.

Another sign could be a refusal to pay for public transport, though this would require the active support of the transport staff. The squatters movement could well re-emerge but organised in the particular properties they took for themselves. There's plenty of deliberately empty property in Kensington and Chelsea by all accounts!

The armed forces finding it very hard to recruit and an increase in resignations and desertions would be a positive sign of resistance to doing our masters bidding. Likewise with the police and prison service. The ultimate sign would be the election of socialist delegates to political office for that would be carrying the stamp of working class approval.

Of course we can speculate as much has we like but the truth is we do not know how the workers will start expressing their sense of empowerment until that time arrives. Perhaps you've had some thoughts on the matter? If so please spit them out.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Puting this Thread on ignore,
It's really dull.

 

[butchersapron]

No butchers I'm not repeating your question just trying to expand on the dumb assertion you put, "Are they cast out"? Now either explain what you mean by that term or drop it and I'll just answer your first question, "What happens in this little picture if a worker rejects or recognises problems with the labour theory of value?"

Your pitch once again butchers.

A question isn't an assertion, it's an attempt to establish something - your outline of class consciousness was a good example of what a long list of assertions designed to look like a substantive argument is though. It's really quite simple, you gave a confused and contradictory outline of how you see the concept of class consciousness, i asked a question about it.

You started off by offering the classic second international model of there being a split between economic consciousness and political consciousness. If you remember earlier in the thread i posted up a quote by Lenin endorsing Kautsky's very similar outline of this model and using it as the basis of his early model of political organisation - vanguardism. It seems that the similarities just keep on coming don't up they? You offer no reason whatsoever for saying this split exists beyond an inept attempt to map Marx's idea of class-in-itself and class-for-itself onto the situation - but more on that in a sec.

Then when you get down to what those consciousness' consist of, rather than say that class consciousness is collective and individual experience reflecting on itself - an open ended process or use of a creative capacity - you've decided that it's agreement with a set of definite per-existing beliefs (including acceptance of a technical economic definition of value production!) - and guess whose already decided what those beliefs are - that's right, the self-selected SPGB.

No basis is offered for why these specific beliefs have been settled on or why the SPGB have the right to decide that these must be believed in to qualify as a class conscious worker beyond this marking the point at which full collective class consciousness is achieved, the point when the class becomes a class-for-itself is the point at which it learns to agree with SPGB.

All of the above consists of pure assertion as well. Now, we've already established that you are unable to draw out the vanguardist implications of your politics, so i'm hoping you'll find in the above some useful pointers. But the question remains, are those workers who do not accept the labour theory of value (or indeed the whole list of positions to be accpeted that you've drawn up on behalf of them) to be cast out of the ranks of the 'advanced workers', of the vanguard by you, by the SPGB?

 

[TremulousTetra]

A question isn't an assertion, it's an attempt to establish something - your outline of class consciousness was a good example of what a long list of assertions designed to look like a substantive argument is though. It's really quite simple, you gave a confused and contradictory outline of how you see the concept of class consciousness, i asked a question about it.

You started off by offering the classic second international model of there being a split between economic consciousness and political consciousness. If you remember earlier in the thread i posted up a quote by Lenin endorsing Kautsky's very similar outline of this model and using it as the basis of his early model of political organisation - vanguardism. It seems that the similarities just keep on coming don't up they? You offer no reason whatsoever for saying this split exists beyond an inept attempt to map Marx's idea of class-in-itself and class-for-itself onto the situation - but more on that in a sec.

Then when you get down to what those consciousness' consist of, rather than say that class consciousness is collective and individual experience reflecting on itself - an open ended process or use of a creative capacity - you've decided that it's agreement with a set of definite per-existing beliefs (including acceptance of a technical economic definition of value production!) - and guess whose already decided what those beliefs are - that's right, the self-selected SPGB.

No basis is offered for why these specific beliefs have been settled on or why the SPGB have the right to decide that these must be believed in to qualify as a class conscious worker beyond this marking the point at which full collective class consciousness is achieved, the point when the class becomes a class-for-itself is the point at which it learns to agree with SPGB.

All of the above consists of pure assertion as well. Now, we've already established that you are unable to draw out the vanguardist implications of your politics, so i'm hoping you'll find in the above some useful pointers. But the question remains, are those workers who do not accept the labour theory of value (or indeed the whole list of positions to be accpeted that you've drawn up on behalf of them) to be cast out of the ranks of the 'advanced workers', of the vanguard by you, by the SPGB?

Your fibbing again. It wasn't just a question in an "attempt to establish something".

What happens in this little picture if a worker rejects or recognises problems with the labour theory of value? Are they cast out?

what happens in this little picture if a worker reject's or recognizes problems in any of your theories Butcher's?

 

[Gravediggers]

But the question remains, are those workers who do not accept the labour theory of value (or indeed the whole list of positions to be accpeted that you've drawn up on behalf of them) to be cast out of the ranks of the 'advanced workers', of the vanguard by you, by the SPGB?

All applications for membership to the SPGB contain questions relating to economic consciousness and political consciousness. When applicants fail to relate their reply to an acceptance of the labour theory of value they are not accepted as members. If they have been accepted and at a later stage there's been a change of mind and they have rejected the labour theory of value they are asked to reconsider, resign or face expulsion.

Obviously, we are not talking about instant dismissal, for the member concerned can if they so wish go over the disagreement with his Branch or with other members to clarify the issue.

 

[butchersapron]

Who mentioned membership of the SPGB? I certainly didn't. You've entirely missed the point. Freddy asked you what class consciousness is, you replied with the above assertions, i pointed put the problems that these assertions highlighted and you immediately responded, almost as if to prove my point, by equating class consciousness purely with membership of the SPGB, And aside from doing that you ignored all the other points i brought out - after demanding that i expand on them.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who mentioned membership of the SPGB? I certainly didn't. You've entirely missed the point. Freddy asked you what class consciousness is, you replied with the above assertions, i pointed put the problems that these assertions highlighted and you immediately responded, almost as if to prove my point, by equating class consciousness purely with membership of the SPGB, And aside from doing that you ignored all the other points i brought out - after demanding that i expand on them.

You see GD, if you misunderstand butch, that's your fault. if Butch misunderstands you, that's your fault. And if he ask's you to clarify, your obligated, BUT if you ask him to clarify anarchism, he throws a hissy or stonewalls.

Your waisting your time, if you are interested in an honest exchange of ideas.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who mentioned membership of the SPGB? I certainly didn't. You've entirely missed the point. Freddy asked you what class consciousness is, you replied with the above assertions, i pointed put the problems that these assertions highlighted and you immediately responded, almost as if to prove my point, by equating class consciousness purely with membership of the SPGB, And aside from doing that you ignored all the other points i brought out - after demanding that i expand on them.

What happens in this little picture if a worker rejects or recognises problems with the labour theory of value? Are they cast out?

Cast out of what? I too thought you meant the SPGB.

 

[Gravediggers]

Who mentioned membership of the SPGB? I certainly didn't. You've entirely missed the point. Freddy asked you what class consciousness is, you replied with the above assertions, i pointed put the problems that these assertions highlighted and you immediately responded, almost as if to prove my point, by equating class consciousness purely with membership of the SPGB, And aside from doing that you ignored all the other points i brought out - after demanding that i expand on them.

When I asked you to clarify what you meant by, "Cast out" you then replied by implying membership to the SPGB so naturally I replied in that vein. You now say that is not what you meant. So we are back to my original request for clarification of what you mean by, "Cast out"?

The SPGB do not deny there are workers out side of the membership who are economically and politically class conscious so how are we in a position to cast them out if at some stage they reject the labour theory of value? Out of where, by whom, for what reason.

They either accept they are exploited as a class or they do not. What the fuck are you arguing about?

 

[FreddyB]

You see GD, if you misunderstand butch, that's your fault. if Butch misunderstands you, that's your fault. And if he ask's you to clarify, your obligated, BUT if you ask him to clarify anarchism, he throws a hissy or stonewalls.

Your waisting your time, if you are interested in an honest exchange of ideas.

You've got an axe to grind but all you're achieving is making yourself look like a twat.

 

[JimW]

You've got an axe to grind but all you're achieving is making yourself look like a twat.

And then some. Embarrassing.

 

[butchersapron]

When I asked you to clarify what you meant by, "Cast out" you then replied by implying membership to the SPGB so naturally I replied in that vein. You now say that is not what you meant. So we are back to my original request for clarification of what you mean by, "Cast out"?

The SPGB do not deny there are workers out side of the membership who are economically and politically class conscious so how are we in a position to cast them out if at some stage they reject the labour theory of value? Out of where, by whom, for what reason.

They either accept they are exploited as a class or they do not. What the fuck are you arguing about?

I said exactly and explicitly - cast out of the ranks of the 'advanced workers', out of those who have class consciousness. It's not complicated. I'm not talking about SPGB membership at all. (Luckily for the class) And you really do not get the point do you, you genuinely don't - and this is why your own inherent vanguardism manages to elude you so easily. That you define class consciousness as agreeing with the positions that you've already worked up on behalf of the working class - inside or outside of the SPGB - you reduce CC down to agreeing with you and you evacuate it of any sense of self-activity or collective experience. Class consciousness becomes agreeing with you. That's a fixed game and it's one you damn other left groups for sharing in.

 

[FreddyB]

Good point which comes up for discussion from time to time. One sure sign would be the capitalist class offering reforms like there was no tomorrow in order to delay the inevitable and in a futile effort to appease their dwindling support. There could also be groups within the community establishing their own political and social networks in anticipation of the transformation.

Another sign could be a refusal to pay for public transport, though this would require the active support of the transport staff. The squatters movement could well re-emerge but organised in the particular properties they took for themselves. There's plenty of deliberately empty property in Kensington and Chelsea by all accounts!

The armed forces finding it very hard to recruit and an increase in resignations and desertions would be a positive sign of resistance to doing our masters bidding. Likewise with the police and prison service. The ultimate sign would be the election of socialist delegates to political office for that would be carrying the stamp of working class approval.

Of course we can speculate as much has we like but the truth is we do not know how the workers will start expressing their sense of empowerment until that time arrives. Perhaps you've had some thoughts on the matter? If so please spit them out.

How do these things come about, what creates the situations that you describe above?

It is however a struggle which is continually on the defensive for when capitalism is in crisis or it is the general opinion that the workers can afford a particular service these reforms are eroded or removed. For the capitalist class hold all the cards.

How does capitalism come to be in crisis? It seems to me you have everything backwards.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, it's an upside down picture that accurately reflects the vanguardist notion of w/c passivity and a mechanical law driven capitalism instead of recognising that the w/c actually are the crisis.

 

[butchersapron]

Shame? This is an epicly entertaining thread.

It is, we've had the SPGB - as represented by former welsh nationalsit gravediggers - moving from arguing they're not vanguardist everyone else is, to now arguing that everyone including them is vanguadist and have to be. Genius stuff.

 

[editor]

Is this the biggest. most widely read thread about the SPGB anywhere on the internet?

 

[Gravediggers]

You see GD, if you misunderstand butch, that's your fault. if Butch misunderstands you, that's your fault. And if he ask's you to clarify, your obligated, BUT if you ask him to clarify anarchism, he throws a hissy or stonewalls.

Your waisting your time, if you are interested in an honest exchange of ideas.

I've never expected an honest exchange of ideas with the likes of butchers for they will never be satisfied with the reply you provide. Nevertheless, butchers does serve a useful purpose in exposing where he actually stands in relation to his own class consciousness, both economically and politically. For his eternal nit picking classically illustrates he does not accept that the working class will ever become a class conscious majority.

Ultimately, his thesis is that self-education by the class and for the class is an impossible task and therefore organisations like the SPGB should discontinue propogating the case for socialism. Indeed never even start the process, for the class struggle is only about reforms. For revolution does not even come into the picture. The logic of this thesis is the working class deserve to find permanent residence in the gutter for that is where they belong.

If socialists ignore that message they are IMHO doing a disservice to the case for socialism.

 

[FreddyB]

Is this the biggest. most widely read thread about the SPGB anywhere on the internet?

Probably the biggest most widely read anything about the SPGB anywhere ever

 

[FreddyB]

I've never expected an honest exchange of ideas with the likes of butchers for they will never be satisfied with the reply you provide. Nevertheless, butchers does serve a useful purpose in exposing where he actually stands in relation to his own class consciousness, both economically and politically. For his eternal nit picking classically illustrates he does not accept that the working class will ever become a class conscious majority.

Ultimately, his thesis is that self-education by the class and for the class is an impossible task and therefore organisations like the SPGB should discontinue propogating the case for socialism. Indeed never even start the process, for the class struggle is only about reforms. For revolution does not even come into the picture. The logic of this thesis is the working class deserve to find permanent residence in the gutter for that is where they belong.

If socialists ignore that message they are IMHO doing a disservice to the case for socialism.

It's only your own view of the w/c that allows you to think that. He's saying completely the opposite, that he doesn't see the w/c as the passive accepting collection of numpties that you do and is quite confident they'll keep themselves out of the gutter without your help.

 

[JimW]

I've never expected an honest exchange of ideas with the likes of butchers for they will never be satisfied with the reply you provide. Nevertheless, butchers does serve a useful purpose in exposing where he actually stands in relation to his own class consciousness, both economically and politically. For his eternal nit picking classically illustrates he does not accept that the working class will ever become a class conscious majority.

Ultimately, his thesis is that self-education by the class and for the class is an impossible task and therefore organisations like the SPGB should discontinue propogating the case for socialism. Indeed never even start the process, for the class struggle is only about reforms. For revolution does not even come into the picture. The logic of this thesis is the working class deserve to find permanent residence in the gutter for that is where they belong.

If socialists ignore that message they are IMHO doing a disservice to the case for socialism.

Or maybe he, like me, just disagrees with you and your bizarre take on what class consciousness and the class for itself might mean. The self-education of the class comes from our lived experience of the class war, not having the best theory polished with knobs on (let alone this lash-up you're peddling).

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Anarchism is still a load of rubbish though.

 

[Gravediggers]

Is this the biggest. most widely read thread about the SPGB anywhere on the internet?

I have no idea, but I imagine so. Why do you ask, and is it bothering the staff at urban75 that we have turned out to be so popular with the number of views (coming up for 11,00)?

 

[JimW]

Anarchism is still a load of rubbish though.

I blame you and your poor levels of self-activity (not the hand shandy variety).

 

[FreddyB]

Anarchism is still a load of rubbish though.

Eating out of skips?

 

[Gravediggers]

It's only your own view of the w/c that allows you to think that. He's saying completely the opposite, that he doesn't see the w/c as the passive accepting collection of numpties that you do and is quite confident they'll keep themselves out of the gutter without your help.

Since when have the SPGB stated or even asserted that the working class are a "passive accepting collection of numpties"? Quite the reverse in fact for the very reason we propagate the socialist case is on the understanding that the workers are the engine for change.

And if you are correct that this is indeed butchers position it confirms my point I made e.g.

"Ultimately, his thesis is that self-education by the class and for the class is an impossible task and therefore organisations like the SPGB should discontinue propogating the case for socialism. Indeed never even start the process, for the class struggle is only about reforms. For revolution does not even come into the picture. The logic of this thesis is the working class deserve to find permanent residence in the gutter for that is where they belong."