Some random questions on trains.

[kalmatthew]

These should probably be asked on RailUK but they scare me....

Does anyone know why on long distance trains we letter caridges but on commuter trains they are numbered? My guess is it's something archeic.

Why is the working timetable to 30 seconds rather than a whole minute, it seems strangely accurate to.be historical and for recording whats actually happened strangely inaccurate for computer based reporting.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Does anyone know why on long distance trains we letter caridges but on commuter trains they are numbered? My guess is it's something archeic.

dunno. having carriage numbers visible on commuter trains is a relatively recent (as in within the last 20 or so years) thing - it's only really practical where it's electronic. with long distance trains, before semi-permanently coupled units (HSTs and onward) it used to be done with paper labels on the end windows which would have been too much faffing about for shorter distance trains, especially on lines where you get trains dividing / joining (as in front X carriages going to this place, rear Y carriages going to that place)

Why is the working timetable to 30 seconds rather than a whole minute, it seems strangely accurate to.be historical and for recording whats actually happened strangely inaccurate for computer based reporting.

i'd have thought computers can register things down to the second if you ask them to. some underground lines go in to quarter minutes or maybe even less now.

 

[kalmatthew]

dunno. having carriage numbers visible on commuter trains is a relatively recent (as in within the last 20 or so years) thing - it's only really practical where it's electronic. with long distance trains, before semi-permanently coupled units (HSTs and onward) it used to be done with paper labels on the end windows which would have been too much faffing about for shorter distance trains, especially on lines where you get trains dividing / joining (as in front X carriages going to this place, rear Y carriages going to that place)

Maybe that's where it cam from. I'm guessing short platforms at some stations has always been a thing and in unlabled coaches you just naturally count. So it stuck for commuter trains.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'm guessing short platforms at some stations has always been a thing

I'm sure to some extent it has been, but it seems to have become more of a thing in recent years as trains have been lengthened to increase capacity (10 coach trains never used to happen on the line here, but did until recently) and some stations haven't had their platforms extended for one reason or another.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

some underground lines go in to quarter minutes or maybe even less now.

or to 5 second precision on the victoria line



(working timetables are public domain now - i think they got pissed off with arguing about whether they were subject to freedom of information requests and gave up and put them online.)

 

[Elpenor]

This thread needs davesgcr i reckon to answer

 

[existentialist]

or to 5 second precision on the victoria line

View attachment 425842

(working timetables are public domain now - i think they got pissed off with arguing about whether they were subject to freedom of information requests and gave up and put them online.)

Oooh, my LaTeX formatting template would have to have been revised to include those tricksy seconds in it. But nice typography, all the same.

 

[davesgcr]

Back in the day - when LT as was had programme machines "controlling" the remote interlockings and waistcoat wearing signalmen* in power "cabins" watching the illuminated diagrams and slickly moving air operated lever frames - the working timetables were timed at 30 second precision.........

The world has moved on with digitalisation and 5 second precision is perfectly possible - but the old system could "path" up to 40 trains an hour - albeit shorter trains which could clear layouts quickly........


(programme machines were 1920.s technology - and in those days the staff in cabins was pretty much 100% male*........)

 

[hash tag]

s anyone know why on long distance trains we letter caridges but on commuter trains they are numbered? My guess is it's something archeic.

To avoid a clash of systems? Commuter trains around the country all have numbers and because they are local the numbering does not overlap. Long distance trains could be letterer because they travel through countless towns and the " numbering" won't clash with the local system wherever it happens to be.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

To avoid a clash of systems? Commuter trains around the country all have numbers and because they are local the numbering does not overlap. Long distance trains could be letterer because they travel through countless towns and the " numbering" won't clash with the local system wherever it happens to be.

i think the initial post was about the carriages within each individual train, not the number that identifies that particular train.

on network rail, each train still has a 4 character reporting number, but they haven't shown them on the front of trains since the early 70s, as in

from here - seems that any particular reporting number will only be in use anywhere once on the system at any time, so the 1100 train from A to B will not have the same code as the 1000 train from A to B did, but the number used by the 1000 train might get recycled in the afternoon.

The Southern Region (and a few other places) used to show 2 character headcodes, but that showed where the train was going, more akin to a bus route number (although it was more for the information of signalmen and station staff rather than the public) so each train between the same points via the same route would carry the same headcode, so there could be several trains with the same headcode (but different reporting numbers that weren't visible) at the same time. as in this one (code 81 was Cannon Street to Dartford via Greenwich)

Underground trains have a 'train number' which (unless something goes wrong) stays with that particular train all day, as in train number A will leave this depot at this time, and work these journeys and end up at that depot at that time (it can be fairly complicated in that you need the same number of trains ending up at each place at night as started there in the morning, but potentially not the same actual trains, as they need to go back to a main depot for maintenance every X days but can stay in a remote siding overnight on other days) - as in this one - 414 is the train (working) number

 

[hash tag]

think the initial post was about the carriages within each individual train,

That's where I was trying to come from but not very eloquently

 

[teuchter]

Generally on long distance services the carriage letter is (a) intrinsic to the train and (b) part of the identification for reserved seats.

So, you can do stuff like have seating plans that show exactly where each seat is, which way it faces and so on, and also you are less likely to confuse people by having coach A run at the end of the train when running in a particular direction.

On the trains that use numbering, which generally don't offer reservations, the numbering isn't intrinsic to the train (coach 1 can become coach 8 when the train reverses direction and so on, because it's just something that appear on the electronic displays).

For seat reservations, seat A12 is easier to remember / get right than seat 2-12.

In continental Europe they use coach numbers but they can often be entirely non-sequential. That's because (less commonly nowadays) sometimes "through" coaches run from one destination to another by being detached & re-attached to several different trains during the course of their journey. Especially on night services you might find that you are in eg. coach 102 even though the train does not have 100+ coaches. And the next coach along might be 103 but it might also be 53 or 120. This system wouldn't work with only 26 letters to choose from.

 

[iona]

In continental Europe they use coach numbers but they can often be entirely non-sequential. That's because (less commonly nowadays) sometimes "through" coaches run from one destination to another by being detached & re-attached to several different trains during the course of their journey. Especially on night services you might find that you are in eg. coach 102 even though the train does not have 100+ coaches. And the next coach along might be 103 but it might also be 53 or 120. This system wouldn't work with only 26 letters to choose from.

There's something really satisfying about managing to stand on the right bit of the platform to board coach 14 before all the other confused travellers who were expecting it to be near the back of the train and not almost at the front

 

[T & P]

Assuming this thread comes with a built-in tolerance for stupid questions, who controls the points (or perhaps more pertinently, used to before the modern age of computer technology) in urban tram networks? Trams must have been around for well over century, and I have never seen images of control boxes or trackside points control leavers at tram track
junctions. How were they managed back in the day?

And as a spinoff question from the above, are there any railway systems in the world where the train driver gets to change the points from the cabin, rather than being operated by assigned controllers?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Assuming this thread comes with a built-in tolerance for stupid questions, who controls the points (or perhaps more pertinently, used to before the modern age of computer technology) in urban tram networks? Trams must have been around for well over century, and I have never seen images of control boxes or trackside points control leavers at tram track
junctions. How were they managed back in the day?

on larger systems, it involved having pointsmen at locations with 'facing junctions' (i.e. where one line splits in to two directions), one visible at the left of this photo



photographer was standing on waterloo bridge, tram would be about to turn left in to the entrance of the kingsway subway (the southern entrance is now 'proud late' - street view here)

Where trams in regular service only took one route, and the other line didn't have a regular service, the points could be set / sprung (as in where there was a single line section). And where two lines merged in to one (a 'trailing junction') then the points would be sprung in one direction, and the weight of a tram coming from the other direction would be enough to push the points over so it could get through.

Points on the conduit sections in London involved more ironmongery than on the overhead, as the conduit 'plough' also needed to be sent in the right direction. On the overhead, where trolley-poles (rather than pantographs) were in use, the points also had to be linked to a 'frog' in the overhead so that the trolley-pole would go the right way.

the latter also needed to be done for trolleybuses - either by the conductor, or again by a pointsman at the busiest junctions at least in peak hours. Conductor demonstrating it at sandtoft transport museum -



this was relatively labour intensive (and another argument against keeping trams on) - Brixton, for example, would almost certainly have needed three - one controlling the southbound Brixton Hill / Effra Road junction, one at the northbound Stockwell Road / Brixton Road junction and one at Stockwell Road controlling eastbound trams to either Coldharbour Lane or Brixton Road.

In London, the pointsmen tended to be former drivers or conductors who had been medically downgraded, although it must be questionable how healthy it was being stood outside (with a canvas hut arrangement) all day.

At points where trams didn't usually use a particular track, or where there was a crossover that wasn't used regularly, then the tram crew would sort it out themselves, as in this example on an enthusiasts' tour



An automated alternative which was in use from the 1920s onwards (although there weren't many in London) was 'power and coast' points, where if a tram was drawing power from the overhead at a particular place, the points would be set by an electric motor to go one way, if the tram was 'coasting' (not drawing power) then the points would be set to go the other way (which could cause problems if it wasn't safe to draw power at that point.)

the standard rule was that tram drivers should approach facing points slowly enough to be able to check they are correctly set before proceeding.

 

[iona]

There's some footage of old London trams and the points/power supply changes Puddy_Tat mentions, here (skip to about 6:30 for the start of the film)

And as a spinoff question from the above, are there any railway systems in the world where the train driver gets to change the points from the cabin, rather than being operated by assigned controllers?

Melbourne does. They also have a big metal bar in the tram for doing manual changes. More information than you probably wanted here.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

On the overhead, where trolley-poles (rather than pantographs) were in use, the points also had to be linked to a 'frog' in the overhead so that the trolley-pole would go the right way.

or alternatively, set the points then 'pull the frog' rather than them being mechanically linked.

and if you do it wrong

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Melbourne does.

i'd like to have visited melbourne

i don't think any UK tram system had the 'control from cab' system - blackpool was still on manual point irons until the system got modernised.



there is an argument for having the 'point box' in the middle of the road - there's no chance that way of someone changing the points when the front half of the tram has gone through the points and the back half hasn't - that can get messy...

skip to about 6:30 for the start of the film

i'll pass on that, thanks. some years ago, i used to do some volunteering at the london transport museum at covent garden, when a couple of the trams were opened up so people could look inside (under our supervision) a couple of weekends each year, and they had that film on loop on a video near us, so you got it about 20 times in a day...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

just found another one while looking for something else



pointsman stood in the road on blackfriars road, when that was the terminus - before trams went over blackfriars bridge to the embankment. he would have directed trams in to one of the three terminus roads.

This was very early days of electric tram operation - the LCC fairly rapidly realised it was better / safer to stand the pointsmen on the pavement instead...

 

[StoneRoad]

That's all very interesting information ... and has added to the limited details of which I was already aware.

[most of my knowledge is post-preservation ... and limited to operations on a couple of sites !]

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Just in case anyone comes to the conclusion I was around when London trams were operating, I should add that my actual involvement in tram operation is limited to the preservation world and observations at Blackpool... And that was quite a while ago now...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

and another couple of pointsmen,

lewisham (left of picture - outside chiesmans' department store, which is where the police station is now)



and one at elephant and castle (wearing white hat, partly obscured by all the stuff on the traffic island)



not sure if the other uniformed figure is another pointsman, or an inspector.

also visible in that is the wooden hut arrangement where a police officer would control the semi-automated traffic signals - this must have replaced a few PC's on point duty.

maybe another day, i'll try and work out how many tram pointsmen were needed to deal with elephant + castle. think it's a bit too late in the day for that now...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

That's all very interesting information ... and has added to the limited details of which I was already aware.

if you want a bit more reading matter about how it all worked at ground level, recommended reading would be -

'the wheels used to talk to us', stan collins - spoken / transcribed, stan was son of a brixton cable tram driver, started work as a 14 year old at LCC Tramways charlton works, then went tram driving when he came back from army service in / after the 1914 war, latterly at the brixton depot, became a driving instructor after 1945 then was a bus driver in to the mid 60s.

'beneath the wires of london', charlie wyatt - he became a trolleybus conductor then driver at finchley depot in 1951.

'london's last trams', hugh taylor - concentrates on the last few years of london's trams, and the conversion programme, with a lot of detail and recollections from people who were there at ground level.

to be honest, there are too many books about london's trams, some of them really aren't worth the effort.

 

[StoneRoad]

if you want a bit more reading matter about how it all worked at ground level, recommended reading would be -

'the wheels used to talk to us', stan collins - spoken / transcribed, stan was son of a brixton cable tram driver, started work as a 14 year old at LCC Tramways charlton works, then went tram driving when he came back from army service in / after the 1914 war, latterly at the brixton depot, became a driving instructor after 1945 then was a bus driver in to the mid 60s.

'beneath the wires of london', charlie wyatt - he became a trolleybus conductor then driver at finchley depot in 1951.

'london's last trams', hugh taylor - concentrates on the last few years of london's trams, and the conversion programme, with a lot of detail and recollections from people who were there at ground level.

to be honest, there are too many books about london's trams, some of them really aren't worth the effort.

Thank you, I shall have to make time for those [probably via the local Library ...]

 

[kalmatthew]

Generally on long distance services the carriage letter is (a) intrinsic to the train and (b) part of the identification for reserved seats.

So, you can do stuff like have seating plans that show exactly where each seat is, which way it faces and so on, and also you are less likely to confuse people by having coach A run at the end of the train when running in a particular direction.

On the trains that use numbering, which generally don't offer reservations, the numbering isn't intrinsic to the train (coach 1 can become coach 8 when the train reverses direction and so on, because it's just something that appear on the electronic displays).

For seat reservations, seat A12 is easier to remember / get right than seat 2-12.

In continental Europe they use coach numbers but they can often be entirely non-sequential. That's because (less commonly nowadays) sometimes "through" coaches run from one destination to another by being detached & re-attached to several different trains during the course of their journey. Especially on night services you might find that you are in eg. coach 102 even though the train does not have 100+ coaches. And the next coach along might be 103 but it might also be 53 or 120. This system wouldn't work with only 26 letters to choose from.

Thanks that was intresting and makes sense.

Assuming this thread comes with a built-in tolerance for stupid questions, who controls the points (or perhaps more pertinently, used to before the modern age of computer technology) in urban tram networks? Trams must have been around for well over century, and I have never seen images of control boxes or trackside points control leavers at tram track
junctions. How were they managed back in the day?

And as a spinoff question from the above, are there any railway systems in the world where the train driver gets to change the points from the cabin, rather than being operated by assigned controllers?

I think further questions are not just tolerated but encouraged!

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought this would be a thread about asking fellow passengers questions during journeys to discombobulate them.