Should the EDL be banned from marching in Tower Hamlets.

[Streathamite]

That is the yard stick is it?

A regular comment on here is the lack of 'education' that leads people to supprt racism and the far right but you are now putting this down to intelligence rather than education?

actually, I missed that statement, which serves me right for skim-reading so shoddily. THAT bit of Pinette's post i certainly don't agree with - writing off and demonising all EDLers as thick hoolies is totally counterproductive, not least because a lot of white w/c people share in E london share some of their concerns, and also doing so is an unfortunate echo of Labours failure to engage with their own core in a productive debate about immigration

 

[Corax]

Struck me this morning how silent the mayor of London has been on the issue. Not that a statement from him would make a blind bit of difference to anything, but I'm curious whether it's a conscious decision (and if so, for what reason), or whether he's just not interested/doesn't think it of sufficient importance.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Struck me this morning how silent the mayor of London has been on the issue. Not that a statement from him would make a blind bit of difference to anything, but I'm curious whether it's a conscious decision (and if so, for what reason), or whether he's just not interested/doesn't think it of sufficient importance.

Seeing as Borrie managed to piss off Tower Hamlets over the re-routing of the London Olympics 2012 marathon event (thus avoiding TH) - a deal has subsequently been struck, see here for details - he's presumably been ordered by his "people"/Met Plod/Theresa May etc etc to keep his gaffe-prone gob shut on this one...

 

[treelover]

'Ill fitting suits, thick, dolies, benefit scroungers', all epiphets used by the liberal left to attack the EDL, BNP, etc...,

 

[ViolentPanda]

That is the yard stick is it?

A regular comment on here is the lack of 'education' that leads people to supprt racism and the far right but you are now putting this down to intelligence rather than education?

While I can see why people assume it's down to a lack of education or intelligence (it's the easiest default to fall back on, the "thick/uneducated w/c" trope), it's too easy to do so and ignore the structural issues that might fuel support.

Of course, blaming those people for being thick or uneducated works a lot better for those in power than the more accurate analysis that it's the fault of unemployment, social resources spread too thinly and the thinly-veiled contempt of those same people in power.

 

[ViolentPanda]

actually, I missed that statement, which serves me right for skim-reading so shoddily. THAT bit of Pinette's post i certainly don't agree with - writing off and demonising all EDLers as thick hoolies is totally counterproductive, not least because a lot of white w/c people share in E london share some of their concerns, and also doing so is an unfortunate echo of Labours failure to engage with their own core in a productive debate about immigration

It's not even, in the end, about immigration, though. It's about people getting riled because they believe that one sector of the population (in this case, Muslims) are treated favourably in terms of resource allocation, and are allowed to "get away with" stuff based on their religion. Fuel for any xenophobe, and where does it originate? From our mainstream politicians and mainstream media.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'Ill fitting suits, thick, dolies, benefit scroungers', all epiphets used by the liberal left to attack the EDL, BNP, etc...,

All been used to attack elements of "the left" too, or have you forgotten the 1980s already?

 

[MellySingsDoom]

'Ill fitting suits, thick, dolies, benefit scroungers', all epiphets used by the liberal left to attack the EDL, BNP, etc...,

Also "chavs" "chav scum" "chav scrotes" etc etc etc (because nothing beats attacking bigotry like, er, using bigoted comments in return, eh? x 1,000)

e2a: @ViolentPanda - yup, can't forget what you say, too.

 

[Streathamite]

It's not even, in the end, about immigration, though. It's about people getting riled because they believe that one sector of the population (in this case, Muslims) are treated favourably in terms of resource allocation, and are allowed to "get away with" stuff based on their religion. Fuel for any xenophobe, and where does it originate? From our mainstream politicians and mainstream media.

I agree, and would add that the tories and labour engage with dog whistle politics over this, with the Labour grassroots also not engaging with, and challenging that (mistaken) belief.
there's two things that needs to be done to drain this poison;
1) listen to indigenous w/c class communities' genuinely held (but IMO mistaken) beliefs about muslims/immigrants per se, as part of community activism, at a time when all are feeling under pressure
2) challenge those views on the grounds you can prove they're bollocks.
Infact, this was almost exactly what hodge did, extremely successfully, in Barking in 2010.
Unfortunately, Labour have almost completely turned their backs on that sort of community engagement, and so are letting the right dictate the agenda

 

[krink]

Unfortunately, Labour have almost completely turned their backs on that sort of community engagement, and so are letting the right dictate the agenda

I would say labour have completely turned their backs on the working class as a whole, so after points 1 and 2 there would need to be a point 3; come up with a political alternative to the bnp et al.

 

[Streathamite]

I would say labour have completely turned their backs on the working class as a whole

That's actually what i meant - apols if it wasn't clear

so after points 1 and 2 there would need to be a point 3; come up with a political alternative to the bnp et al

agreed, but fuck knows how a viable alternative will come about, simply because our left are so shite. I mean, technically, the SWP are a 'political alternative to the bnp et al', but who would take them seriously as such?

 

[krink]

agreed, but fuck knows how a viable alternative will come about

agreed but better people than me need to work that one out!

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Struck me this morning how silent the mayor of London has been on the issue. Not that a statement from him would make a blind bit of difference to anything, but I'm curious whether it's a conscious decision (and if so, for what reason), or whether he's just not interested/doesn't think it of sufficient importance.

Why don't you ask him? http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/enquiry-form be interesting to see if he replies, let alone what any such response is....

 

[Corax]

While I can see why people assume it's down to a lack of education or intelligence (it's the easiest default to fall back on, the "thick/uneducated w/c" trope), it's too easy to do so and ignore the structural issues that might fuel support.

Of course, blaming those people for being thick or uneducated works a lot better for those in power than the more accurate analysis that it's the fault of unemployment, social resources spread too thinly and the thinly-veiled contempt of those same people in power.

Your latter words are all true, but I do believe that a lack of education is a root cause. It's not, however, the type of education that's taught in school that's being referred to. It's a lack of knowledge about the real causes for shitty housing, crap/no jobs, and so on. Without education on how the system is set up to screw people then they will inevitably look for targets to blame their situation on, and any 'other' is always going to be a hot prospect, especially when elements of the media plant those seeds and nurture them.

 

[Corax]

Why don't you ask him? http://www.london.gov.uk/contact-us/enquiry-form be interesting to see if he replies, let alone what any such response is....

I'd be happy to do so if no one else will, but seeing as I no longer live in London, he'd have a legitimate reason for ignoring my enquiry. Someone within the 32 boroughs may have a better chance of getting a response, and certainly a more valid reason to complain if they don't.

 

[Pickman's model]

While I can see why people assume it's down to a lack of education or intelligence (it's the easiest default to fall back on, the "thick/uneducated w/c" trope), it's too easy to do so and ignore the structural issues that might fuel support.

Of course, blaming those people for being thick or uneducated works a lot better for those in power than the more accurate analysis that it's the fault of unemployment, social resources spread too thinly and the thinly-veiled contempt of those same people in power.

education's what you get in school. but few people stop thinking or learning when they leave school. with the national curriculum the way it is, most things people need or want to know will be learned outside the classroom. and very little of what the edl are interested in is taught in schools - islam may be, but i think you'll find islamism is not on the nc.

and there are a lot of intelligent people among the edl. so i don't see intelligence as a great issue.

what's lacking from a lot of the shit you get from the edl is knowledge. for example they like to cite a very old russian book from the nineteenth century to support their claims (“History of Middle Ages” Professor Nikolay A. Osokin, Textbook (in Russian), Publishing house: Imperial University Printing Office, Kazan, 1888, 771 pp.; Publisher: ACT, Harvest, Moscow, 2008, 672 pp. (reprint)). now, a book published in the middle of fucking nowhere in the nineteenth century is unlikely to be applicable to life in 21st century britain. there's that video of the ignorant edl bloke, the really really ignorant man. it's ignorance more than stupidity or education which characterises the edl.

all too often people dismiss their opponents as stupid. yet for a load of thick fucks the edl have done a bloody good job of getting one over on supposedly intelligent well educated lefties. the caricature of the edl as knuckledragging thick cunts should be laid to rest because it ignores the fact that a movement made up of at least a sizeable minority with degrees has been unable to thus far outwit them.

 

[William of Walworth]

writing off and demonising all EDLers as thick hoolies is totally counterproductive, not least because a lot of white w/c people share in E london share some of their concerns, and also doing so is an unfortunate echo of Labours failure to engage with their own core in a productive debate about immigration

True dat, not disagreeing either in principle or practice.

But try engaging in even an attempt at constructive debate with tabloid-headline believing** xenophobes?

**Wanting to believe ....


The guarenteed fail level is enough to send you down the pub and detach yourself completely.

And enough to keep you permanently silent about politics when you're in a workplace apparantly filled with a majority of foreigner-hating, benefit claimant-demonising bigots.

ETA : I do appreciate (re 'apparantly' above) that the '10% theory' (re opinionated loudmouths dominating the conversational ambience in a workplace/pub/etc.) most likely applies here, but the frustration for a newly incoming outsider of not being able to do a damn thing about changing a damn thing, espcially if you're actually scared/intimidated at being so completely surrounded -- or seeming to be --by idiot-bigot reactionary tossers, is immense.

I'm an alien foreigner here myself ... think how weird THAT reads to any Urbanite reading from more 'advanced' places. True though!

(Even switched on public service focussed union types in my workplace keep quiet most of the time too, except on very narrow union-specific issues).


So forgive me just slightly please if my temptation is to write MANY of 'them' off as thick (espec when I'm drunk! ) because that's certainly what bigots do their level best to sound like in their outbursts.

In massively mono-cultural areas like mine, anyway.

 

[Streathamite]

Your latter words are all true, but I do believe that a lack of education is a root cause. It's not, however, the type of education that's taught in school that's being referred to. It's a lack of knowledge about the real causes for shitty housing, crap/no jobs, and so on. Without education on how the system is set up to screw people then they will inevitably look for targets to blame their situation on, and any 'other' is always going to be a hot prospect, especially when elements of the media plant those seeds and nurture them.

or in other words, education that teaches you to question and analyse how things are, societally?

 

[dylans]

or in other words, education that teaches you to question and analyse how things are, societally?

I think it's also about how information is received and how it's interpreted. When a strike occurs for example. The facts may be clear, but how it is seen is down to interpretation and value judgements that are made when interpreting it. It could be seen as "oh those selfish strikers causing inconvenience" or it could be seen as "oh those bloody bosses forcing people to strike to defend themselves". In both cases the facts may be the same but the interpretation given to them is based on many other factors, not least of them the underlying assumptions and values through which events are seen. And it is by appealing to and reinforcing these values and assumptions that propaganda takes its strength.

Likewise, when, for example, unemployment rises, it is by appealing to underlying nationalist assumptions, assumptions of "us and them" that the finger can be pointed to scapegoat groups such as immigrants or black people or Muslims, regardless of the reality behind those assumptions. This is where class arguments come in because class arguments present the argument in a different way and challenge the ideas of "us and "them". By asking who is this "us" and who is this "them".and by questioning who it is we really have most in common with. The argument that ordinary working class British guy has more in common with a Polish bricklayer than they do with Cameron, for example, can challenge the entire value structure behind nationalist ideas and present a class view which may not have been considered before

 

[Streathamite]

I think it's also about how information is received and how it's interpreted. When a strike occurs for example. The facts may be clear, but how it is seen is down to interpretation and value judgements that are made when interpreting it. It could be seen as "oh those selfish strikers causing inconvenience" or it could be seen as "oh those bloody bosses forcing people to strike to defend themselves". In both cases the facts may be the same but the interpretation given to them is based on many other factors, not least of them the underlying assumptions and values through which events are seen. And it is by appealing to and reinforcing these values and assumptions that propaganda takes its strength.

Likewise, when, for example, unemployment rises, it is by appealing to underlying nationalist assumptions, assumptions of "us and them" that the finger can be pointed to scapegoat groups such as immigrants or black people or Muslims, regardless of the reality behind those assumptions. This is where class arguments come in because class arguments present the argument in a different way and challenge the ideas of "us". The argument that ordinary people have more in common with Polish bricklayers than they do with Cameron, for example, can challenge the entire value structure behind nationalist ideas and present a class view which may not have been considered before

agree with alll that - would prolly have said something like that if I wasn't so rushed atm! - and ther tragedy is that we have so few willing to go out ther and make those class arguments, and the few that are meant to are REALLy bad at winniong w/c communities over. whenever I see WESPECK or the swappies campaigning round my way my heart sinks.

 

[Stoat Boy]

Likewise, when, for example, unemployment rises, it is by appealing to underlying nationalist assumptions, assumptions of "us and them" that the finger can be pointed to scapegoat groups such as immigrants or black people or Muslims, regardless of the reality behind those assumptions. This is where class arguments come in because class arguments present the argument in a different way and challenge the ideas of "us". The argument that ordinary people have more in common with Polish bricklayers than they do with Cameron, for example, can challenge the entire value structure behind nationalist ideas and present a class view which may not have been considered before

All apart from the fact that you need to be able to tell them why the Polish bricklayer was allowed into the country in the first place. This is where the left seem to hit, and its no pun intended, a brick wall.

All they see is the Polish brick layer coming into the country and being willing to work for less money. You would assume that the British left would be at the vanguard of opposing this because all it seems to be doing is playing into the hands of big business but instead they seem to be the ones trying to shout down anybody who suggests that perhaps its not in the interests of the British working class to have mass immigration into this country. Makes no sense, especially in any sort of class struggle context.

 

[dylans]

agree with alll that - would prolly have said something like that if I wasn't so rushed atm! - and ther tragedy is that we have so few willing to go out ther and make those class arguments, and the few that are meant to are REALLy bad at winniong w/c communities over. whenever I see WESPECK or the swappies campaigning round my way my heart sinks.

I have lots of criticisms of the old Militant but in terms of reaching out to working class communities and speaking a language that was understood, they were very good and as a result they won a lot of respect. They were, perhaps, the best the left had seen in a long time in fact

 

[Corax]

whenever I see WESPECK or the swappies campaigning round my way my heart sinks.

I keep being drawn to the idea of a leftist 'patriot' group. The EDL claim to be against islamic extremism. I don't think many on the left are all that keen on it either. The idea of being a 'patriot' seems to appeal to a lot of people, and the idea of hijacking that sentiment to get some proper education across in some way is tempting. I don't know whether it would be workable, and it also feels slightly... sneaky - but just shouting antifash slogans at them and calling them nazis doesn't seem to have had much success, maybe co-opting somehow them is a better way to go.

Probably a stupid idea, I dunno.

 

[dylans]

All apart from the fact that you need to be able to tell them why the Polish bricklayer was allowed into the country in the first place. This is where the left seem to hit, and its no pun intended, a brick wall.

All they see is the Polish brick layer coming into the country and being willing to work for less money. You would assume that the British left would be at the vanguard of opposing this because all it seems to be doing is playing into the hands of big business but instead they seem to be the ones trying to shout down anybody who suggests that perhaps its not in the interests of the British working class to have mass immigration into this country. Makes no sense, especially in any sort of class struggle context.

The working class have a common interest in uniting globally to fight for decent pay and conditions for all. Nationalism, dividing workers according to arbitrary geographical locations only serves to divide workers. Challenging the myths behind immigration is more important than pandering to them. Chief amongst these myths is the idea that immigrant workers drive down wages. This is nonsense for the simple reason that companies that wish to operate low wage businesses are also capable of relocating. Thus if there were no low wage immigrant workers to choose from here, those businesses that seek low paid workers would simply relocate to locations where cheap labour is available. The key here then is not to blame immigrants for working for low wages but to fight for decent pay for all and to take that fight globally.

 

[Stoat Boy]

The working class have a common interest in uniting globally to fight for decent pay and conditions for all. Nationalism, dividing workers according to arbitrary geographical locations only serves to divide workers. Challenging the myths behind immigration is more important than pandering to them. Chief amongst these myths is the idea that immigrant workers drive down wages. This is nonsense for the simple reason that companies that wish to operate low wage businesses are also capable of relocating. Thus if there were no low wage immigrant workers to choose from here, those businesses that seek low paid workers would simply relocate to locations where cheap labour is available. The key here then is not to blame immigrants for working for low wages but to fight for decent pay for all and to take that fight globally.

Enjoy the political wilderness then. Because that BS aint being bought by anybody.

 

[dylans]

Enjoy the political wilderness then. Because that BS aint being bought by anybody.

You may call it BS but you can offer nothing to counter it and that's because most of the crap written about immigration is based on myth.

Far from being a burden on this country, immigration is essential. The UK birthrate (1.64 the lowest since records began) which means that immigration, especially skilled immigration, is essential simply to keep the working age population stable. Without immigration the NHS for example would grind to a halt.

A third of all doctors gained their qualifications abroad.

A quarter of all nurses were born abroad. (half in london)

A fifth of all elderly carers were born abroad.


study after study has shown the myths around immigration to be totally without foundation. For example a study by the low pay commission found in the period of 1997 and 2005

we find evidence of overall positive wage effects of immigration over the period of study

http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/research/pdf/t0Z96GJX.pdf

But of course, you are not actually interested in the facts are you?

 

[Stoat Boy]

You may call it BS but you can offer nothing to counter it and that's because most of the crap written about immigration is based on myth.

Far from being a burden on this country, immigration is essential. The UK birthrate (1.64 the lowest since records began) which means that immigration, especially skilled immigration, is essential simply to keep the working age population stable. Without immigration the NHS for example would grind to a halt.

A third of all doctors gained their qualifications abroad.

A quarter of all nurses were born abroad. (half in london)

A fifth of all elderly carers were born abroad.


study after study has shown the myths around immigration to be totally without foundation. For example a study by the low pay commission found in the period of 1997 and 2005



http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/research/pdf/t0Z96GJX.pdf

But of course, you are not actually interested in the facts are you?

Aint me you have got to convince. I love immigration. Benefited from it immensely. But the point is that I am not in competition with any immigrants for employment. And I aint ever going to support or vote for anybody or thing from the left.

But why not ask the questions about why the NHS needs to employ so many foreign people. For me is just an example of how poor our own educational system is that we are not producing enough people with these skills. Thats the real tragedy of this country in that nobody is willing to really face up to the true reasons as to why we need mass immigration.

Both the left and the right in this country are guilty of selling the indiginous working class population down the river. The right do it for short term profits and the left do it for bullshit notions of a global class struggle.

Those most in favour of mass immigration strike me as the ones being the least affected by it on a day to day basis. Shame on all of us for that.

 

[dylans]

There are as many people who migrate as who imigrate to the UK. In addition, outside of the EU, it is actually incredibly difficult to immigrate to the UK. Unless you are skilled, have at least a masters or a lot of money, you aint coming here. Despite what the mail says, marriage is no longer an automatic right and there are stringent financial hurdles to pass before your wife or husband can gain citizenship. The myth of mass immigration to the UK is just that, a myth. with emigration taken into account the number of migrants has been relatively stable.

But the real point is that this is the 21st Century, modern information and transport has made the world a smaller place and the fact that people can traverse the globe and seek a better life elsewhere is not only a good thing but it is inevitable. People will always come and go, economies become combined, cultures merge. To oppose this is simply utopian and literally reactionary, because it is attempting to hold back something that is inevitable and positive.

 

[ViolentPanda]

All apart from the fact that you need to be able to tell them why the Polish bricklayer was allowed into the country in the first place. This is where the left seem to hit, and its no pun intended, a brick wall.

All they see is the Polish brick layer coming into the country and being willing to work for less money. You would assume that the British left would be at the vanguard of opposing this because all it seems to be doing is playing into the hands of big business but instead they seem to be the ones trying to shout down anybody who suggests that perhaps its not in the interests of the British working class to have mass immigration into this country. Makes no sense, especially in any sort of class struggle context.

Hah, like it wasn't a Tory government that signed up to the principle that allows workers from other EU member-states to work in any EU member state, and like they weren't looking to engage in exactly the sort of exploitation that you're faux boohooing about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The working class have a common interest in uniting globally to fight for decent pay and conditions for all. Nationalism, dividing workers according to arbitrary geographical locations only serves to divide workers. Challenging the myths behind immigration is more important than pandering to them. Chief amongst these myths is the idea that immigrant workers drive down wages. This is nonsense for the simple reason that companies that wish to operate low wage businesses are also capable of relocating. Thus if there were no low wage immigrant workers to choose from here, those businesses that seek low paid workers would simply relocate to locations where cheap labour is available. The key here then is not to blame immigrants for working for low wages but to fight for decent pay for all and to take that fight globally.

The whole "low wages" issue is a bit of a phantom anyway. It's very short-term (generally lasts a couple of years before equalisation kicks in) and is dependent on a constantly replenished labour-pool. Labour, however, is like any other resource: It tends to go to "the highest bidder". Currently, that's Germany, whose economy isn't staggering like that of the UK.