Scotland to establish minimum unit price for alcohol

[Bahnhof Strasse]

And those bottles cost less than the minimum price of a 750 ml bottle will be in Scotland. How do the poor possibly restrain themselves?

In France they are civilized-cafe-culture poor, in Scotland they are deep-fried-skag-hound poor.

Posted from my wine cellar in Surrey...

 

[pogofish]

I mentioned Canada in a previous post as providing the evidence base for this. It's just regions of Canada, not the whole country.

And the government of British Columbia isn't reasonably analogous to Holyrood within the UK? The similarities are pretty close IMO - right down to their legislation being driven by "evidence" paid for by RWJF.

 

[Sunset Tree]

And the government of British Columbia isn't reasonably analogous to Holyrood? The similarities are pretty close IMO - right down to their legislation being driven by "evidence" paid for by RWJF.

There is legit evidence see Sheffield Alcohol Policy Model and various academic research done on MUP. I don't know about paid evidence.

Yes the British Columbia example is quite similiar, different structure as mentioned (not a blanket minimum price). There's a few places who have it in some form or another.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The thing with population level public health measures is they're often unfair on individuals. You have to balance if the outcomes are worth it.

Elsewhere MUP has produced clear reductions in consumption and associated reductions in alcohol related poor health. Studies done on regions in Canada before/after introduction of MUP, for example.

Can you provide links to these clear results?

I just looked up the example of British Columbia, which has been mentioned, and they only introduced minimum pricing last year. Before that, the only restriction was sale at less than wholesale price, according to this from CBS news, so the new law has only been in place for one year. Not sure how much evidence that can bring.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Can you provide links to these clear results?

I just looked up the example of British Columbia, which has been mentioned, and they only introduced minimum pricing last year. Before that, the only restriction was sale at less than wholesale price, according to this from CBS news, so the new law has only been in place for one year. Not sure how much evidence that can bring.

I'll see if I can dig out a couple of papers as I'm currently just relying on memory. It's not just British Columbia there's a few places.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Will this increase pub prices? I thought they'd already be over 50p per unit.

If it applies to wholesale prices, then yes.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Can you provide links to these clear results?

I just looked up the example of British Columbia, which has been mentioned, and they only introduced minimum pricing last year. Before that, the only restriction was sale at less than wholesale price, according to this from CBS news, so the new law has only been in place for one year. Not sure how much evidence that can bring.

Just a couple of quick ones I found on my computer. Sorry I need to go out so don't have time to summarise these. One makes an interesting point that it doesn't discriminate on income as even the better-off severe alcoholics drink the cheapest alcohol.

American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

The price of a drink: the potential of alcohol minimum unit pricing as a public health measure in the UK

Impact of minimum price per unit of alcohol on patients with liver disease in the UK. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Silas Loom]

The red wine and cola business is new on me. Ban this filth.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If it applies to wholesale prices, then yes.

They might have changed their criteria, but when this first came up a couple of years ago, it talked only of retail prices.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The red wine and cola business is new on me. Ban this filth.

Undrinkable wine sold terrifyingly cheap isn't really a thing in the UK though. In Italy you can get a litre of wine for 1 euro, but once you taste it you'll soon come around to the idea of cutting it with cola.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Btw you obviously need access to read those papers but you can view the abstract etc.

 

[Teaboy]

I'm pretty sure its at the point of sale so its not going to effect the wholesale cost for pubs and clubs etc. I guess what it will do though is severely hamper their ability to do promotions which I suppose is what its about.

I do feel that things like white cider and the like are stupidly cheap, there is a reason its known as supermarket smack but I don't like this approach one little bit.

 

[pogofish]

There is legit evidence see Sheffield Alcohol Policy Model and various academic research done on MUP. I don't know about paid evidence.

Guess who had some influence on that one! Particularly where breaking work down into bite-size nuggets to influence/intrest policymakers was concerned.

Colby et al., from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF), USA, developed a model for translating research for policymakers (Colby et al. 2008). The model comprises of ‘Synthesis Products’ – a 20-page synthesis report and 4-page policy brief – that are ‘easy to use’, and relevant to the policy context. Lessons learned from the RWJF Synthesis Project include creating incentives for the practice of synthesizing research evidence, greater transparency in the evidence-weighing process, involving policymakers throughout the research process, and timely release of the products to coincide with policy ‘windows’. Gold has also developed a framework showing how research may get applied in policymaking through ten pathways with a series of intermediate activities and feedback loops, which can determine how messages are communicated and used in the policy process (Gold 2009).

When you get into this area, it actually becomes really very difficult to find any bit of work that doesn't have the sticky fingerprints RWJF or one or other of their collection of loosely affiliated drug/healthcare companies all over it. This is a very big-money concern for them.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Guess who had some influence on that one! Particularly where breaking work down into bite-size nuggets to influence/intrest policymakers was concerned.



When you get into this area, it actually becomes really very difficult to find any bit of work that doesn't have the sticky fingerprints RWJF or one or other of their collection of loosely affiliated drug/healthcare companies all over it. This is a very big-money concern for them.

None of that means the research itself isn't valid, as far as I can see.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Impact of minimum price per unit of alcohol on patients with liver disease in the UK. - PubMed - NCBI

Just taking this one, they survey problem drinkers and ask them what they buy. But they are not strong on how they then model the way these problem drinkers will change their habits with minimum pricing. Spending an even greater proportion of their income on drink is likely to be one outcome. What knock-on effects will that have for them or their families? They don't tackle these questions - they take drinking diaries from patients and see what they spend and how they spend it in the current pricing regime, but make no particular argument about how this spending and behaviour will be changed aside from the obvious - that they will no longer be buying the stuff that is no longer available to them to buy.

I've seen similar weaknesses in other studies before. Problem drinkers (those that end up in hospital) tend to drink the cheapest shit. (Well dur, did you really need a study to tell you that.) Therefore, the logic goes, we tackle problem drinking by removing the cheapest shit. Not necessarily. All you can really know is that you will change what many problem drinkers drink by removing the cheapest shit - and in places that have tried drastic measures to stop drinking, like Russia, those measures have invariably led to increasingly desperate behaviour among problem drinkers.

This kind of study annoys me because it dodges obvious questions and pretends to say more than it actually says, which is really just to provide numbers for something we all would have guessed to be true.

ETA: My prediction: among other things, expect to see a boom in home-brewing.

 

[pogofish]

American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

You couldn't have picked an org more in the back pocket of RWJF if you tried..!

And just a reminder of who the director of RWJF was until last year. Its his family trust but he stood down to do a little job (Ambassador to the UK) for his buddy:

 

[pogofish]

None of that means the research itself isn't valid, as far as I can see.

This isn't about research - Its all about control and access to power. Don't think that Scotland is anything more than a stepping stone to a greater goal.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In a 'wear a wig' party, Donald really doesn't need to bother, does he?

 

[Orang Utan]

In a 'wear a wig' party, Donald really doesn't need to bother, does he?

of course he does. you think that barnet of his is a wig?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

of course he does. you think that barnet of his is a wig?

It already looks like one and looks just like the one he chose.

Never mind...

tumbleweeds

 

[cupid_stunt]

If it applies to wholesale prices, then yes.

It doesn't apply to wholesale prices, it's point of sale prices.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It doesn't apply to wholesale prices, it's point of sale prices.

It allows supermarkets and offies to operate as a cartel basically. They'll be delighted.

 

[pogofish]

ETA: My prediction: among other things, expect to see a boom in home-brewing.

Have some ambition - this is Scotland after all:

 

[Sunset Tree]

This isn't about research - Its all about control and access to power. Don't think that Scotland is anything more than a stepping stone to a greater goal.

Do you disagree with the methods or results of that research?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Have some ambition - this is Scotland after all:

Brings back memories of living in the Republic of Ireland back in the 80s, that potcheen was fucking evil, in a nice way.

 

[pogofish]

One of my pals is haled as one of the best poteen makers in Donegal. I should drop back and take lessons - then open an online shop!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you disagree with the methods or results of that research?

In the case of the one I spoke about above, I'd throw the question back at you - what do the results of their research show (the numbers extracted from the drinking diaries, which is really their only data set) wrt the likely effects of minimum pricing on the drinking of problem drinkers?

There are wider issues to do with not fucking over poor people and the extent to which govts should be regulating behaviour in this way, but sticking to the narrow remit of seeing what effect minimum pricing will have on public health, what do these studies show exactly?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Brings back memories of living in the Republic of Ireland back in the 80s, that potcheen was fucking evil, in a nice way.

Did you have your tastebuds extracted at birth?

 

[Sunset Tree]

In the case of the one I spoke about above, I'd throw the question back at you - what do the results of their research show (the numbers extracted from the drinking diaries, which is really their only data set) wrt the likely effects of minimum pricing on the drinking of problem drinkers?

There are wider issues to do with not fucking over poor people and the extent to which govts should be regulating behaviour in this way, but sticking to the narrow remit of seeing what effect minimum pricing will have on public health, what do these studies show exactly?

All that one tells you is that MUP has quite a specific effect on the most harmful drinking patterns. I.e. it shouldn't punish moderate drinkers much. That, along with the argument that it won't reduce consumption, was one of the key arguments against MUP.

Regarding consumption, the one pogofish questioned was a bit more relevant as it shows population level reductions in consumption, with a case control for comparison. Reduce consumption and you improve population health.

It's more about the body of evidence, these ones alone demonstrate specific parts of the picture.

 

[Sunset Tree]

That was just the first three studies I found, I can look out some more. The Sheffield population modelling stuff is apparently quite good although it's theoretical of course and I probably don't fully understand it.