Schools in Lambeth discussion thread

[Winot]

The middle classes are partly worried that their child won't achieve it's potential in a 'second rate' school, but mainly terrified of mixing with the working class.

 

[Winot]

It's been depressing to see friends/colleagues in my profession (which is very well paid) default to private schools once they have children (even the ones that went to state schools themselves). Unfortunately it's an entirely rational, if selfish, response.

 

[Gramsci]

[quote="nagapie, post: 12062397, member: 24797" So I'm taking it that you mean that private schools would lead to better social outcomes for your kids in terms of knowing the right people and getting that sort of confidence Gramsci mentions in the post above.

[/QUOTE]

Spot on. That is exactly why parents do it. They might go on about better results but this is the real reason. Though they would not like to say it in polite company.

Why are quotes not working?

nagapie

 

[nagapie]

It can be a tough choice. Although I plan to send my child, who has just over a year until he starts school, to a local school I don't plan to send him to any of the 3 nearest me for various reasons. If it happens that he does have to go to one of them, it won't be the end of the world but I wouldn't choose them.

 

[Gramsci]

It's been depressing to see friends/colleagues in my profession (which is very well paid) default to private schools once they have children (even the ones that went to state schools themselves). Unfortunately it's an entirely rational, if selfish, response.

I have been hearing this recently. People whose parents happily sent them to state schools now are looking at private schools. Usually at secondary level not primary. It is rational given the kind of society this is now. 60s and 70s moving to more equal society now its the opposite.

 

[leanderman]

Sorry, you lost me. You said you'd quite like to access private education for your kids as it gives them better outcomes then agreed with all the points I made to counter that. So I'm taking it that you mean that private schools would lead to better social outcomes for your kids in terms of knowing the right people and getting that sort of confidence Gramsci mentions in the post above.

Yep.

 

[leanderman]

I have been hearing this recently. People whose parents happily sent them to state schools now are looking at private schools. Usually at secondary level not primary. It is rational given the kind of society this is now. 60s and 70s moving to more equal society now its the opposite.

This line of thought was analysed very well by Simon Kuper in the FT magazine this weekend
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f0355440-8c3e-11e2-8fcf-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Noyv8iH5

will post it up, if subscriber-restricted

 

[leanderman]

Sorry, you lost me. You said you'd quite like to access private education for your kids as it gives them better outcomes then agreed with all the points I made to counter that. So I'm taking it that you mean that private schools would lead to better social outcomes for your kids in terms of knowing the right people and getting that sort of confidence Gramsci mentions in the post above.

Elite schools don't just foster a 'sense of entitlement', they provide lifelong social connections.

 

[Gramsci]

This line of thought was analysed very well by Simon Kuper in the FT magazine this weekend
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f0355440-8c3e-11e2-8fcf-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Noyv8iH5

will post it up, if subscriber-restricted

"Outcome" based attitude to education has its limits. I have (mainland) Chinese friend. When she first came here to study she found it difficult as she was asked to critique and comment in class.

In China schools do not encourage critical thinking. As she told me her Chinese friends are all into making money. Education is a stepping stone to that. Thats what the Government told them to do.

She says it means that the growing social problems in China ( inequality etc) are not being addressed as people like her are not educated to bring a critical awareness. They do not even have the tools to do it she told me.

So education based around "Outcomes" is in the long term not good for a society imo.

 

[Winot]

I have been hearing this recently. People whose parents happily sent them to state schools now are looking at private schools. Usually at secondary level not primary. It is rational given the kind of society this is now. 60s and 70s moving to more equal society now its the opposite.

Yes, secondary level mainly.

 

[leanderman]

"Outcome" based attitude to education has its limits. I have (mainland) Chinese friend. When she first came here to study she found it difficult as she was asked to critique and comment in class.

In China schools do not encourage critical thinking. As she told me her Chinese friends are all into making money. Education is a stepping stone to that. Thats what the Government told them to do.

She says it means that the growing social problems in China ( inequality etc) are not being addressed as people like her are not educated to bring a critical awareness. They do not even have the tools to do it she told me.

So education based around "Outcomes" is in the long term not good for a society imo.

Even more true of South Korea - where obsessive testing, scoring and ranking of students means their lives are determined in a 'Brave New World' way.

 

[sparkybird]

A customer of mine who lives in a posh area of Claaaaaam, was telling me about two male work colleagues who were amazed that she sent her kids to state school (it's a good one, though!). They were both a product of private education (as probably were their parents) and countered that if you were going to pay for education why not pay for a better one? My customer said 'what on earth do you mean, I don't pay for my kids to go to school'. Neither realised that state school was free.

How out of touch can people be???

 

[gaijingirl]

was just reading about this new primary (free) school which is to open on Half Moon Lane - bilingual (Eng/German)

http://www.jkps.org.uk/

 

[Manter]

That looks interesting.

 

[leanderman]

was just reading about this new primary (free) school which is to open on Half Moon Lane - bilingual (Eng/German)

http://www.jkps.org.uk/

And admission priority given to children of founders.

 

[Winot]

I have been hearing this recently. People whose parents happily sent them to state schools now are looking at private schools. Usually at secondary level not primary. It is rational given the kind of society this is now. 60s and 70s moving to more equal society now its the opposite.

There are some interesting stats coming out of the Ofsted inspection of the Independent sector:

Ofsted inspects 1,144 independent schools, 40% don't have good leadership; a third ranked below good overall (vs only 20% of state schools)

via
@Wigdortz
Founder and CEO of Teach First; Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Adviser of Teach For All

 

[leanderman]

There are some interesting stats coming out of the Ofsted inspection of the Independent sector:



via
@Wigdortz
Founder and CEO of Teach First; Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Adviser of Teach For All

It's not about the social connections and stuff I guess as much as the education.

 

[Gramsci]

Was looking for this thread last night.

Thought there was a schools thread.

 

[leanderman]

Was looking for this thread last night.

Thought there was a schools thread.

Good debate right now on: http://www.brixtonblog.com/new-educational-campus-include-free-school/19036#comment-464045

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Only just seen this thread, and noticed some of the discussion about lotteries rather than catchment areas from 2012. Tbf I can see why the argument is made, but having worked with various children who have long commutes between their homes and schools (for various reasons), IME long commutes are bad for primarily emotional, but also potentially academic outcomes, particularly for younger kids. Also I don't think the Brighton secondary school experiment achieved its aims of increased social integration, and I'm not sure if it's even still used.

 

[leanderman]

Only just seen this thread, and noticed some of the discussion about lotteries rather than catchment areas from 2012. Tbf I can see why the argument is made, but having worked with various children who have long commutes between their homes and schools (for various reasons), IME long commutes are bad for primarily emotional, but also potentially academic outcomes, particularly for younger kids. Also I don't think the Brighton secondary school experiment achieved its aims of increased social integration, and I'm not sure if it's even still used.

Are school commutes longer in aggregate in Brighton, now?

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Are school commutes longer in aggregate in Brighton?

Tbh don't know. I was more thinking of kids in London who do it for a variety of different reasons. A lottery might no doubt have some benefits but it also potentially leads to more kids having much more lengthy and complicated journeys.

Whilst I went to secondary school in Brighton many years before the lottery, I just went to one of the two schools that were closest to me, which was a 15 minute walk. My parents certainly didn't move to the area for catchment reasons, in fact we probably lived in the not so good area of the catchment. All my other secondary school options would probably have required longer walks with a bus or multiple buses, and yeah, could have pushed the journey time up to about a hour, possibly more. I think that would have been a negative impact, as I see it have a negative impact on the others I referred to.

Though tbh I don't think Brighton has a complete lottery for the whole city, it's just a lottery for large catchment areas with several schools in each afaik. Which reduces the chance of really silly (i.e. 2 hour) commutes, but makes a limited impact in resolving the issues it was meant to resolve.

 

[leanderman]

Tbh don't know. I was more thinking of kids in London who do it for a variety of different reasons. A lottery might no doubt have some benefits but it also potentially leads to more kids having much more lengthy and complicated journeys.

Whilst I went to secondary school in Brighton many years before the lottery, I just went to one of the two schools that were closest to me, which was a 15 minute walk. My parents certainly didn't move to the area for catchment reasons, in fact we probably lived in the not so good area of the catchment. All my other secondary school options would probably have required longer walks with a bus or multiple buses, and yeah, could have pushed the journey time up to about a hour, possibly more. I think that would have been a negative impact, as I see it have a negative impact on the others I referred to.

Though tbh I don't think Brighton has a complete lottery for the whole city, it's just a lottery for large catchment areas with several schools in each afaik. Which reduces the chance of really silly (i.e. 2 hour) commutes, but makes a limited impact in resolving the issues it was meant to resolve.

Interesting. And the latter idea is what I'd advocate here at primary and secondary level. The impact might be limited though.