San Francisco campaign threatens workers with redundancy if they demand a living wage

[8ball]

One thing puzzles me. If most people don't earn a living wage - then who is going to buy all those lovely products?
Robots don't need phones, gadgets or coffee.

A lot of quite rich people are puzzled by this too. The more thoughtful ones at least. I think these are fairly quiet murmurings for the most part, though, and there is a big media machine pushing the more mainstream message.

 

[8ball]

Anyway, once we attain anarchist communism...

Any day now...

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

The minimum wage sounds great in theory, however it doesn't result in good long term results. One example, if the minimum wage is raised and an employee's worth to a company is worth less than the new minimum wage, they'll be fired.

75 Economists call for higher minimum wage:

The economists said raising the federal minimum wage would improve the economy, as millions of workers spend their fattened paychecks.

"This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016," the letter said. "Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through 'spillover' effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mo-minimum-wage-economists-20140114-story.html

You see the economy is more than just the supply side. There's also the demand side. Both of them functioning together will create a virtuous circle. For years the supply side has been carefully tended and the demand side destroyed. If you look at the trends of the last few years low-end retail has been in the doldrums. That's because no one in their target demographic has money to spend. (Check out Walmart's last earnings report about the last cut in food stamps. ).

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

A lot of quite rich people are puzzled by this too. The more thoughtful ones at least. I think these are fairly quiet murmurings for the most part, though, and there is a big media machine pushing the more mainstream message.

Like this one:

Dear 1%ers, many of our fellow citizens are starting to believe that capitalism itself is the problem. I disagree, and I’m sure you do too. Capitalism, when well managed, is the greatest social technology ever invented to create prosperity in human societies. But capitalism left unchecked tends toward concentration and collapse. It can be managed either to benefit the few in the near term or the many in the long term. The work of democracies is to bend it to the latter. That is why investments in the middle class work. And tax breaks for rich people like us don’t. Balancing the power of workers and billionaires by raising the minimum wage isn’t bad for capitalism. It’s an indispensable tool smart capitalists use to make capitalism stable and sustainable. And no one has a bigger stake in that than zillionaires like us.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-us-plutocrats-108014_Page4.html#.U85W2WpOXct

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

America is the world's richest third-world country.

Sad, but true.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I don't see how an iPad can completely replace waiting staff. It may be able to take your order if it is built into your table.If it isn't it will be nicked. However someone is going to have to bring the meal to your table, unless they can incorporate a 'go and collect your meal' system. Eating out will be like going to Argos. Boycotts of such places might be the next stage.

Its just another way of turning your customers into your unpaid staff. People are getting tired of that. One reason I don't shop at Walmart is because they expect you to ring up the sale yourself and then walk over to the door where a person grabs your receipt and sticks their nose in your bag to make sure you haven't stolen anything. Just have the person ring up the sale and they'll know what's in the bag, FFS.

 

[8ball]

Its just another way of turning your customers into your unpaid staff. People are getting tired of that. The reason I don't shop at Walmart is because they expect you to ring up the sale yourself and then walk over to the door where a person grabs your receipt and sticks their nose in your bag to make sure you haven't stolen anything. Just have the person ring up the sale and they'll know what's in the bag, FFS.

I'm not sure where I stand on stuff like this - I pump my own gas when filling my car up but then that's been the way since I learned to drive. The scab tills really get my back up, though.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I'm not sure where I stand on stuff like this - I pump my own gas when filling my car up but then that's been the way since I learned to drive. The scab tills really get my back up, though.

I'm old enough to remember when someone pumped your gas and checked your oil. When they switched to pump your own it was a little controversial.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

once we attain anarchist communism

Funny.

 

[phildwyer]

One thing puzzles me. If most people don't earn a living wage - then who is going to buy all those lovely products?

 

[Nylock]

 

[tbtommyb]

The minimum wage thing is a bit of a red herring. What's going to happen is they'll just get replaced by automation anyway, if it's possible. The utopian future where everyone can work less is almost here!

This is what I was thinking. The barrier to some kind of automated ordering system in a restaurant isn't the cost, it's the cultural opposition or lack of properly functioning tech. Once it's working well it won't matter if you're earning $9 or $15, an automatic system will still be far cheaper.


Related to the owning/maintaining the machines thing, I think we currently fetishise tech experts because we are in the early stages of constructing an all-pervasive machine-network. One way it might go is that it becomes so intuitive and self-maintaining that tech skills become unnecessary apart from for a very few. The vast majority of people will have no need to know how the technology works, just as most people nowadays have no idea how cars or whatever work. That doesn't mean that mechanics enjoy a privileged place in society now.

But because we are still at the beginning we can see 'inside' a structure that will become essentially invisible. A recent example is how connecting to the internet used to very obviously involve dialling a number on a physical network, now all of that is hidden behind wifi. Within a few years the idea of file formats, having to connect to the internet, hard drive storage limits etc etc will all seem anachronistic, super-techy details.

The sheer number of jobs that this will destroy makes me hopeful for a citizen's wage but who knows.

 

[DownwardDog]

This is what I was thinking. The barrier to some kind of automated ordering system in a restaurant isn't the cost, it's the cultural opposition or lack of properly functioning tech. Once it's working well it won't matter if you're earning $9 or $15, an automatic system will still be far cheaper.

The $15/hour (higher MW) job will be destroyed before the $9/hour though as the displacing technology won't have to be as cheap.

 

[krtek a houby]

Maybe they plan on importing a few Japanese robots.









Dance instructors:

Having said that, the Japanese have been working on these guys since the days when Tommorow's World was on the tellybox, and they all seem to look remarkably similar to the way they did back then. I think maybe residents of SF don't have so much to worry about.

The robot above; that's Asimo. I met him at the Miraiken Museum, yes.

 

[tbtommyb]

The $15/hour (higher MW) job will be destroyed before the $9/hour though as the displacing technology won't have to be as cheap.

At the point of development yes, but once it's widespread it doesn't matter. Surely the cost of e.g. self-service tills are very high as they're developed and come on the market, but once they're mass produced they'll reduce massively in price.

So for example I don't think supermarkets having to pay NMW led to self-service checkouts - they would have been implemented in any event unless staff basically worked for free. The hourly cost of a self-service checkout, including capital costs, must surely be far less than what any staff member could ever work for.

 

[Idris2002]

This just in:

 

[ddraig]

from last week/few days ago?

 

[Idris2002]

Dunno. On Facebook it said that it was happening now. It could have been a different "now" of course.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've visited Canada 3 times & don't plan to go back.

a grand day for canada

 

[J Ed]

a grand day for canada

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

This just in:

How big is the mcshits if it needs a thousand builders to close it down?

 

[Silva]

How big is the mcshits if it needs a thousand builders to close it down?

The one here (one that frequently features on the "most beautiful mcdonalds locations" or some shit) used to be a posh, restaurant/café on ground floor with a pool club in the basement. I don't remember exactly how big it is, but it can certainly hold a few hundreds inside.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

All of the above. There's a federal minimum wage. Then cities and states can set their own, higher minimum.

We're working on a petition to set the minimum wage here at $9.25. That might make sense here because its almost a wage you can survive on. $10 would be more reasonable. You can buy a house here on $15 an hour.

I doubt if $15 in San Francisco buys much more than basic survival.

It occurred to me that I should update this post.

The minimum wage ballot proposal passed, but got watered down a bit. We now have a $8 an hour minimum wage with a boost to $9 next January 1. I believe that 19 other states passed similar measures.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I don't see how an iPad can completely replace waiting staff. It may be able to take your order if it is built into your table.If it isn't it will be nicked. However someone is going to have to bring the meal to your table, unless they can incorporate a 'go and collect your meal' system. Eating out will be like going to Argos. Boycotts of such places might be the next stage.

Absolutely.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The average price of homes in San Francisco is $910,000. In Vancouver, it's $788,500 (converting to USD). Anecdote != data.

Eh? $910,000 is circa £650k, even the London average, and London is a very expensive place to buy a house, is circa £500k.

San Francisco must have a huge number of multi-million dollar houses to push the average to that. Bloody glad I don't live there, well, at those prices, I couldn't live there.

 

[Sasaferrato]

75 Economists call for higher minimum wage:



http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mo-minimum-wage-economists-20140114-story.html

You see the economy is more than just the supply side. There's also the demand side. Both of them functioning together will create a virtuous circle. For years the supply side has been carefully tended and the demand side destroyed. If you look at the trends of the last few years low-end retail has been in the doldrums. That's because no one in their target demographic has money to spend. (Check out Walmart's last earnings report about the last cut in food stamps. ).

The opposite is true in the UK. Lidl and Aldi, whose selling campaigns are based on quality at a good price, have increased their market share greatly in the last twelve months. The 'big four', ASDA, Morrison's, Tesco and Sainsbury's are seeing their market share eroded.

 

[Sasaferrato]

At the point of development yes, but once it's widespread it doesn't matter. Surely the cost of e.g. self-service tills are very high as they're developed and come on the market, but once they're mass produced they'll reduce massively in price.

So for example I don't think supermarkets having to pay NMW led to self-service checkouts - they would have been implemented in any event unless staff basically worked for free. The hourly cost of a self-service checkout, including capital costs, must surely be far less than what any staff member could ever work for.

I refuse to use the things. If they want my money, they provide someone to collect it, otherwise, I go elsewhere. Mrs Sas has refused to go to ASDA with me again, because when directed to a 'self service' checkout, I put a trolley load of stuff on the belt and walked out. Resist these fucking things, sabotage them by clogging them up, and the shops will maybe see the light.

 

[tim]

Maybe they plan on importing a few Japanese robots.

No need for help from the orient, Uncle Sam already has the technology to deal with restive workers

 

[StoneRoad]

I'll not use the "self-service" tills - I go to somewhere else, I don't mind a short queue if it keeps someone in a job. I know someone who worked at ASDA (part of walmart) and the way the workforce are treated means I don't shop there at all.

 

[Silva]

I've only used a self-service till once, and just because I had a handful of items and only three regular tills open (out of, dunno, 20?) with very long queues. Not sure if it was because of being a dead hour, or they were deliberately under-manning the tills to force people into using the then new self-service.
Wouldn't use one again, not only they're a terrible anti-worker tool, but it was also crap to operate and wouldn't take half my perfectly fine coins (and the fucking battered subway ticket machines didn't have a problem with them). If those were for "consumer satisfaction" as they claim, I'd rather they moved to an experiment done here about 20 years ago by a local supermarket, where the costumer would give one of the waiting staff in the entrance a list (had to be few items, all boxed), pay, and in a few minutes, they'd have the purchases in a bag ready to go.