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RIP Shane MacGowan

I don't really have much of an opinion on the guy but the endless anecdotes about how pissed he was / the veneration of the heroic alcoholic is a bit much. I expect like all alcoholics he caused a fair amount of grief to people he knew well.

Am sure he did. But they're a whole lot of love in there.

Certainly don't agree with promoting people to the "legend" status simply because of their alcoholism. See George Best, Oliver Reed etc.
 
I don't really have much of an opinion on the guy but the endless anecdotes about how pissed he was / the veneration of the heroic alcoholic is a bit much. I expect like all alcoholics he caused a fair amount of grief to people he knew well.
I honestly don't think Shane's demise will result in the usual tabloid muck raking. They'd struggle .

He didn't cause grief when he was alive, he was very, very loved.
 
I honestly don't think Shane's demise will result in the usual tabloid muck raking. They'd struggle .

He didn't cause grief when he was alive, he was very, very loved.
I'm not on about tabloid muck raking. I find it really hard to believe he didn't cause grief. All alcoholics do. I have a number in my life I care for a great deal but jeez they've caused some pain to their nearest and dearest. I just find the celebratory tone of some of the anecdotes about his drinking a bit wearing, and stuff like 'we'll raise a glass to him tonight' a bit sad.
 
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I don't really have much of an opinion on the guy but the endless anecdotes about how pissed he was / the veneration of the heroic alcoholic is a bit much. I expect like all alcoholics he caused a fair amount of grief to people he knew well.
I'm pretty much in agreement with this. I'm not aiming that at anyone on the thread as they were simply reporting what they'd seen seen of Shane, but it does feel a bit like lining up with the media image of him. More generally I'm not very good at separating the artist and their work and if they've done something awful or been abusive I stop listening to them, reading them etc. Now Magowan, to get to your point, has never been accused of anything like that but it's fair to say I imagine he was pretty hard work at times (to say the least). Some alcoholics can function though he apparently couldn't. The other thing, I suspect his life was pretty grim for the last few years, even before he lost the ability to walk. Doesn't seem to have been able to write much for a very long time. Hard work certainly, but ultimately 'the harm I've ever done, alas it was to none but me'.
 
I don't really have much of an opinion on the guy but the endless anecdotes about how pissed he was / the veneration of the heroic alcoholic is a bit much. I expect like all alcoholics he caused a fair amount of grief to people he knew well.
I liked some of his stuff but was uneasy with the playing up to some of the worst Irish stereotypes. Alcohol has ripped my (Irish) family to bits so I suppose I can’t help but see it through that lens. For the last few decades I’ve found the romanticising of his alcoholism quite perverse at times when what he really needed was help.
 
I don't really have much of an opinion on the guy but the endless anecdotes about how pissed he was / the veneration of the heroic alcoholic is a bit much. I expect like all alcoholics he caused a fair amount of grief to people he knew well.

I do get where you're coming from but I think, in this case, from what I know, you are projecting your own valid experience of alcoholics a little too much. Heroic is definitely the wrong word to use. And from what I know, your second sentence is just not the view held by people who were close to him.

As I said upthread, I know someone, very well, who knew Shane and his whole family, very well. The outpouring of grief and love is real. "Rave on Shane", said his wife Victoria. He touched people with his talent, as poet, singer and songwriter. It's not all "I saw Shane drinking whiskey from a pint glass" (which, for clarification, I did). He could be difficult, what alcoholic or even non-alcoholic person launched into fame isn't? But 'a fair amount of grief' isn't...fair, in this instance.

He provided a shitload of brilliance. He affected people's lives in a good way, and in many ways that completely outweighed any 'grief' his alcoholism caused.

Dylan Thomas would be a fairer target. And are we all about to start remembering him for being a drunken cunt rather than literary genius?
 
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I think he's a literary genius who hasn't really done anything for over thirty years and is ultimately dead prematurely. Drunken cunt might be unfair but I think it's fair to say there's a lot of wasted talent there.
 
I think he's a literary genius who hasn't really done anything for over thirty years and is ultimately dead prematurely. Drunken cunt might be unfair but I think it's fair to say there's a lot of wasted talent there.
Is it, though? Plenty of creative people's output declines with age. Plenty of rock stars have cleaned themselves up and gone on to become insufferable bores.

People said the same kind of thing about Peter Cook - that he hadn't applied himself, could have done more. But when you get to enjoy what someone did do, what's the point in worrying about the things they didn't do?

Shane lived his life his way and we got a bunch of good stuff from him living his life that way. Who are we to criticise?
 
Is it, though? Plenty of creative people's output declines with age. Plenty of rock stars have cleaned themselves up and gone on to become insufferable bores.

People said the same kind of thing about Peter Cook - that he hadn't applied himself, could have done more. But when you get to enjoy what someone did do, what's the point in worrying about the things they didn't do?

Shane lived his life his way and we got a bunch of good stuff from him living his life that way. Who are we to criticise?
I think we can criticise people like the teenage girl at the gig who told me he was the patron saint of alcoholics, which imo is an utterly misguided take on alcoholism. She seemed proud of her own drinking, and that's to be lamented.
 
Funny thing genius. Intertwined with all sorts of complexities of the mind.

I don't think we have the right to demand the longevity of it.

Again, from what I know, those who knew him are not talking about 'wasted talent'.
Yep. I'm not one of those people who thinks 'if only there had been another Smiths/Beatles/whoever album'. Whatever the output was, that's what life produced, rough with the smooth and all that. Same time, not knowing him personally, I did get the impression he wasn't happy with how his life turned out, at least in terms of the song writing drying up. Admittedly, I'm basing that on the odd sentence in programmes about him and rare interviews.
 
I think we can criticise people like the teenage girl at the gig who told me he was the patron saint of alcoholics, which imo is an utterly misguided take on alcoholism. She seemed proud of her own drinking, and that's to be lamented.

Of course that's lamentable but what's the relevance to Shane here? Do we blame all heroin use on Keef Richards?
 
I did get the impression he wasn't happy with how his life turned out, at least in terms of the song writing drying up.
That might well be true. Sad if so. But he wouldn't be the first artist whose muse mysteriously fell silent on them. We don't know where the ideas come from so we don't know where to look for them when they stop coming. That's kind of true for everyone, alcoholic or not.
 
That might well be true. Sad if so. But he wouldn't be the first artist whose muse mysteriously fell silent on them. We don't know where the ideas come from so we don't know where to look for them when they stop coming. That's kind of true for everyone, alcoholic or not.
Agreed, of course. I only mention it because it is a bit sad.
 
Well since we’re onto the enormous pink elephant in the room…

Shane was immensely difficult. And chaotic and exasperating and all the other things. When I knew him in the 80s he was already a pretty derelict drunk. He also used heroin, crack, speed (as mentioned here) etc . and obviously his substance abuse and addictions drove him to all the awful behaviour native to that state.

But people like Shane, hugely gifted and able to produce art even in the depths of addiction, people like that are given support and forgiveness. The clan meshes around them to create a safety net so that they can continue creating art. Victoria was with Shane for a very long time. She knew what he was, and struggled with him, for him, against him, but she stayed with him. I think her loyalty and love helped others around him to continue loving him, standing with him.

Im always astonished at how people in the grip of addiction can nevertheless produce art. It‘s because of the support they get from people nearby who value the art they produce. Material support, help, shelter, the necessaries, as well as repeated chances, forgiveness, and allowance of their foibles. Everyone knew Shane would never be sober. If you wanted him to be different to what he was, jog on. If you could accept him, then you’d be agreeing to the responsibilities that entails : take care of him, shore him up.

Other addicts in their orbit who don’t produce art, who aren’t creative, they get lost on the verges, ditched without a backward glance.
Shane would probably have died long ago if he hadnt been shored up by love. That’s true of a lot of artists. I know plenty of dead junkies. Of the addicts I‘ve known (and know) who’ve stayed alive, almost all of them are artists of some kind

Some of them are inherently pricks and they get forgiven over and over again. Some ( like Shane) are essentially decent, which makes it easier to keep forgiving them, continue supporting them.

Despite how disrespected artists are by the state, as a society we feel a deep foundational respect for our poets. We can’t help it, and we can’t stop supporting them in whatever way we can, even when they fuck up over and over. (Fame and celebrity can muddy that pure respect, corrupt their value into currency.)

I hate the way alcohol is deified in our society. Idiotic jokey greetings cards, T-shirts, mugs, endless fucking tat all normalising and celebrating our absurd toxic relationship to booze. It’s so malign and it’s so fucking puerile.

Maybe it’s just me, my age or something, but I’m not seeing this “drunken genius“ thing. Surely no one thinks his genus came from being drunk? I don’t see anyone making that claim. And I highly doubt that today‘s youngsters, who seem to look down their noses at us oldies who still use booze to unwind, would give one single respectful glance at Shane MacGowan.

I raised a glass to Shane, and would again. I did think twice about it for exactly the reasons lazythursday said. But then, can you imagine Shane sober and straight? Long term, I mean. It was never going to happen. It was so much a part of him.

I can’t see how we can honour Shane and his poetry without including the excesses and the booze somehow, somehow. I reckon no alcoholic would try to justify their own habit by pointing at Shane and saying “Well if it’s alright for him….” because it was so obviously his talent, his gift, that defined him, not the habit. The booze was the frame, it wasn’t the picture.
 
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I think we can criticise people like the teenage girl at the gig who told me he was the patron saint of alcoholics, which imo is an utterly misguided take on alcoholism. She seemed proud of her own drinking, and that's to be lamented.

Hadn’t seen this when I made my post.
I guess it naysays my point entirely.
She‘s silly and hopefully will grow up and grow past this. Unless shes a nascent alcoholic I suppose,
 
I don't think Shane wasted either his talent or his life - even if both were impaired by the drink.

Sure, alcoholism is nothing to romanticise - my great-grandfather who dropped dead with a bottle of brandy in his hand, would be evidence of that - but I don't think he did that (change my mind).
 
I think we can criticise people like the teenage girl at the gig who told me he was the patron saint of alcoholics, which imo is an utterly misguided take on alcoholism. She seemed proud of her own drinking, and that's to be lamented.
tbf she was only a teenager, she was presumably drunk herself at the time and she was enjoying herself immensely at a gig by someone she loved. I think we can probably forgive her for saying something a bit stupid...
 
Well since we’re onto the enormous pink elephant in the room…

Shane was immensely difficult. And chaotic and exasperating and all the other things. When I knew him in the 80s he was already a pretty derelict drunk. He was also using heroin, crack, speed (as mentioned here) etc . and obviously his substance abuse and addictions drove him to all the awful behaviour native to that state.

But people like Shane, hugely gifted and able to produce art even in the depths of addiction, people like that are given support and forgiveness. The clan meshes around them to create a safety net so that they can continue creating art. Victoria was with Shane for a very long time. She knew what he was, and struggled with him, for him, against him, but she stayed with him. I think her loyalty and love helped others around him to continue loving him, standing with him.

Im always astonished at how people in the grip of addiction can nevertheless produce art. It‘s because of the support they get from people nearby who value the art they produce. Material support, help, shelter, the necessaries, as well as repeated chances, forgiveness, and allowance of their foibles. Everyone knew Shane would never be sober. If you wanted him to be different to what he was, jog on. If you could accept him, then you’d be agreeing to the responsibilities that entails : take care of him, shore him up.

Other addicts in their orbit who don’t produce art, who aren’t creative, they get lost on the verges, ditched without a backward glance.
Shane would probably have died long ago if he hadnt been shored up by love. That’s true of a lot of artists. I know plenty of dead junkies. Of the addicts I‘ve known (and know) who’ve stayed alive, almost all of them are artists of some kind

Some of them are inherently pricks and they get forgiven over and over again. Some ( like Shane) are essentially decent, which makes it easier to keep forgiving them, continue supporting them.

Despite how disrespected artists are by the state, as a society we feel a deep foundational respect for our poets. We can’t help it, and we can’t stop supporting them in whatever way we can, even when they fuck up over and over. (Fame and celebrity can muddy that pure respect, corrupt their value into currency.)

I hate the way alcohol is deified in our society. Idiotic jokey greetings cards, T-shirts, mugs, endless fucking tat all normalising and celebrating our absurd toxic relationship to booze. It’s so malign and it’s so fucking puerile.

Maybe it’s just me, my age or something, but I’m not seeing this “drunken genius“ thing. Surely no one thinks his genus came from being drunk? I don’t see anyone making that claim. And I highly doubt that today‘s youngsters, who seem to look down their noses at us oldies who still use booze to unwind, would give one single respectful glance at Shane MacGowan.

I raised a glass to Shane, and would again. I did think twice about it for exactly the reasons lazythursday said. But then, can you imagine Shane sober and straight? Long term, I mean. It was never going to happen. It was so much a part of him.

I can’t see how we can honour Shane and his poetry without including the excesses and the booze somehow, somehow. I reckon no alcoholic would try to justify their own habit by pointing at Shane and saying “Well if it’s alright for him….” because it was so obviously his talent, his gift, that defined him, not the habit. The booze was the frame, it wasn’t the picture.

Also, of course, his public antics, which are the loudest part of the story, are probably not the largest part. I have no doubt that even if he was drunk at home, he wasn’t falling over, breaking shit, shouting and carousing every day. He was more likely cruising along on a steady blurred plateau of drunkenness, watching the telly, doing the crossword, walking on the beach, normal day to day Shane stuff.
 
Thinking about it….
Given that we do have this fantastically problematic collective relationship to booze, and so many of our poets struggle with it, maybe it’s fair to say that Shane is somehow the “patron saint” of alcoholics.

I think perhaps that’s a clumsy and inaccurate way to recognise and acknowledge something true.

Maybe Shane was the embodiment of an archetype.
What’s a patron saint, after all, if it’s not an archetype of some kind.

Oliver Reed didn’t create his own work, he interpreted the work of others. Same with Peter O’Tool. Georgie Best was a wife beater, so doesn’t come close to being a “saint”.

Dylan Thomas, Brendan Behan, Shane MacGowan…
 
Thanks for those spot on posts, story. In the first one, you mentioned that Shane had a web around him - would it be fair to say that they put limits on his behaviour? I don't get the impression that this was something like the case of Amy Winehouse, where (at least as I read between the lines) she was surrounded by people who just wanted to use her. . . .

Anyway, here's the Pogues live at the Town and Country, 1988. Guest appearances by K. MacColl and J. Strummer.

 
Thanks for those spot on posts, story. In the first one, you mentioned that Shane had a web around him - would it be fair to say that they put limits on his behaviour? I don't get the impression that this was something like the case of Amy Winehouse, where (at least as I read between the lines) she was surrounded by people who just wanted to use her. . . .

Anyway, here's the Pogues live at the Town and Country, 1988. Guest appearances by K. MacColl and J. Strummer.



That’s not true about Amy. It was - and remains - hurtful to the people who were taking care of her that this keeps getting trotted out.

It’s true that she had a coterie of really venal people around her, but there was also a tight (probably too small) circle of quiet dedicated increasingly sad and frustrated people who were trying to take good care of her. In my opinion, she would certainly have died far sooner without them. I can’t and won’t give details : the continuing privacy around this means that I’m certainly not going to divulge. But I can say that in the weeks running up to her death, there were plenty of busy and involved efforts to ferry her to safety, across yet another crisis. They were getting worse each time, this one wasn’t the first. I was party to this because in addition to knowing some of the people who worked with her right from the beginning, one of the people involved was leaning on me to process their own feelings and work through their decision making.

I agree, she’s another good example of what we’re talking about here. She was essentially a good person, and innately talented and gifted.

Do the people who support put limits on the errant behaviour? Yes. But only insofar as doing so is within the natural remit of their relationship. If scolding and curtailing means that you’ll be expelled or shunned by the person at the centre, then it’s not going to work.

It’s hard to explain without giving details. Which obvs I’m not going to do here.

I can’t say anything direct about Shane, as I say I only knew him briefly and tangentially. But I’m probably safe in assuming my other experiences with people like him are comparable.

But pure allowance is for the sycophants. The relationship, the actual relationship, if it’s true, is about honesty and authenticity, and that includes “Yeah, fuck off with that”. If the person at the centre values the relationship, they’ll work with the limits given.




eta
further reflection…
It was impossible to put limits on Amy. She was very errant. Very defiant. Very independent. And she was lonely. The limits were more like electric fences. Not about relationships. I suspect she would have walked that road whether or not she was talented. Poor girl, poor girl.
 
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