Right then - what's the plan?
- Thread starter AveryDave
- Start date
pengedragon
Active Member
Are all leagues done now outside of playoffs?
Al Cunningham
Brockley Hamlet
Perhaps get Nyren back. Saw a few Cray games and he was In great form. They were unlucky to lose to Hornchurch in the play off semis. Hope Hornchurch go up in the final as their forward line of Higgins, Yussef and Nash with Dickson in reserve is well known to us and formidable at this level. Also bad memories of our recent games against them, especially that FA Trophy shocker
No there's a few unfinished but nothing still playing that should influence league allocations at step three.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
I actually think one of the big losses over the last few seasons is the 12th man scheme. I'm not sure if the leftovers were used here, but if not I think it could have provided us with the extra strikers or semi-competent players that we were crying out for. I think something has gone seriously wrong off-pitch when people like Neil Cole, who raised literally thousands of pounds for the club, have just been allowed to drift away. Just from a business point of view, it was a significant form of revenue, but it's evaporated to seemingly no response by the people running the club. I seem to remember Neil posting on here to say people wouldn't even reply to his emails.
I think it poses wider questions at board level. Is it just under-staffed (i.e. 12th man just went because people didn't have time to co-ordinate things with Neil)? If so, there should be a public call for more help. Was it deemed unnecessary? If so, that's a very bad decision, and who exactly is making those decisions? Who's advising them?
The Dumaka thing concerns me as well. He's a bright lad with a solid career in the City, but he has no experience at football board level. Is it just him calling the shots on the football side of things? If so, that surely shouldn't be the case. He's green, he should have others who've been round the block a few times. Shaun Dooley's another person who's drifted away but has done a lot for the club, seen it change and evolve over many years. It's that kind of experience that we should be hanging on to, not dismissing.
Relegation in some ways is a relief - we get to get rid of most of this bloody squad, we get rid of obnoxious individuals at obnoxious clubs, (the Dover chairman and the Bath manager springing immediately to mind), we get a chance to rebuild without GR controlling everything, but it is the off pitch stuff that worries me.
I think it poses wider questions at board level. Is it just under-staffed (i.e. 12th man just went because people didn't have time to co-ordinate things with Neil)? If so, there should be a public call for more help. Was it deemed unnecessary? If so, that's a very bad decision, and who exactly is making those decisions? Who's advising them?
The Dumaka thing concerns me as well. He's a bright lad with a solid career in the City, but he has no experience at football board level. Is it just him calling the shots on the football side of things? If so, that surely shouldn't be the case. He's green, he should have others who've been round the block a few times. Shaun Dooley's another person who's drifted away but has done a lot for the club, seen it change and evolve over many years. It's that kind of experience that we should be hanging on to, not dismissing.
Relegation in some ways is a relief - we get to get rid of most of this bloody squad, we get rid of obnoxious individuals at obnoxious clubs, (the Dover chairman and the Bath manager springing immediately to mind), we get a chance to rebuild without GR controlling everything, but it is the off pitch stuff that worries me.
The 12th Man was a fan initiative and deliberately at arms length from the board. I know that the spare money was offered to the club towards the season end and assume there were discussions about using it.
It was born of the crisis years and it became hard to profile it as the ground became more crowded. I believe Shaun’s other commitments and Covid plus Neil’s move away from the area meant they didn’t have as much time to dedicate to it.
Having said that, I am sure some form of Squadbuilder fund run and administered by the fans or Trust would be welcome.
JoeBoy1959
Well-Known Member
Based on what?
JoeBoy1959
Well-Known Member
How much does ours cost per month?
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
The only good thing about it for me is it gives us a chance to win the Isthmian League championship for a fifth time, which has always been the trophy I've most wanted to see us win, which we were denied 5 years ago when our best season for decades coincided with the worst excesses of Tamplin's vanity project at Billericay.
I'm sure most of the current squad would have been released anyway but now we've got less chance of retaining the few worth keeping. I was told Deon Woodman has been released by QPR and would be happy to stay, but frankly he's too good for National South and will surely get more lucrative offers from a higher level. Joe Felix looked distraught at the end yesterday and I'd certainly keep him. I also feel Jack Holland has been a good captain in a poor side. Sanchez Ming and Quade Taylor were part of the last promotion squad and could certainly still do a job in the Isthmian League for me. I also like Kristian Campbell, who I believe is a local East Dulwich lad, who first played for us as a teenager a decade ago without establishing himself at that time. Danny Mills has other roles within the club and must still have something to offer as a squad player, possibly a coaching role with our new academy too. He's been playing 90 minutes in every game recently, as we just didn't have any real alternatives. I've only mentioned one of last summer's recruits (Felix) in my list, which shows just how poor Gavin Rose's final round of recruitment was, and he was only a triallist who I reckon may not have been kept but for the injuries to Kalala, Comley and Hill.
There will be a few objectionable individuals at other clubs in any division and we've swapped the chairmen of Dover and Braintree for Jack Pearce at Bognor, so that's a bit of an irrelevance to me. It remains to be seen whether there will be any big spenders posing a threat to our ambitions to bounce back. I believe Billericay still have a generous budget and Chatham also seem to have considerable funding and crowd potential, having just been promoted for the second year running. The "off pitch stuff" ought to be the least of our worries now, although there remains the question of who supervises the building of a playing infrastructure below first team level
Does either of those clubs have a vacancy? Welling finished the season strongly, while Dover looks like a basket case with dwindling crowds. They seem to rely heavily on the chairman bankrolling them, it sounds like he cut the budget when it was clear they weren't going to challenge at the top, and they almost ended up dropping through the trapdoor.
We cant build a team for next season without signing players from other clubs when we have no other teams below men's first XI level. Hakan didn't have as many options as he should for this vital game, through no fault of his own. His post match interview alluded to the three who got needlessly suspended during the final few minutes at Hungerford, and he sounded distinctly unimpressed. At the moment that 88th minute equaliser went in Porter, Crichlow and Raymond were all options for the final day. I'm guessing we'd have offloaded Owusu if we could, and used the money saved to fund a replacement, and that he's been turning up for training and matchdays to satisfy contractual obligations and collect his wages. Unlike others he was presumably fully fit, if not match fit, and it was a gamble that didn't pay off. Thompson looked far more effective to me when he came on for the second half. I'm guessing Fawole and Campbell weren't fully fit and only featured because we had so many others missing.
My assumption was that we would lose our annual cut of the Vanarama sponsorship, which I think is £24k, plus matchday revenue from two fewer home league games. That looks like a gross shortfall of up to £100k, with the only obvious saving being fewer coaches for shorter away trips. However, I'm reassured by liamdhfc 's comments elsewhere that this won't be a significant issue.
The expectation is Walton & Hersham will go Southern League but if they return to the Isthmian they could also be dark horses. A sell out crowd of over two thousand saw them seal their third consecutive promotion yesterday. The, then, teenagers who bought them out, and manager they appointed, have done an incredible job.
There's a suspicion of bank rolling, unless something has changed, they get no food or drink revenue. That's what did for Walton Casuals at Step Three. If they do have the funding, I expect them to go well whichever division they are in.
I'm also not sure we'll ever see large numbers of home produced youngsters again even once that area is sorted. Gavin has a very good track record there and struggled to find youngsters good enough to play for a top Isthmian Premier side. Those who are good enough tend to be in academies further up the food chain. The London location works against Hamlet due to the large number of clubs.
There's a suspicion of bank rolling, unless something has changed, they get no food or drink revenue. That's what did for Walton Casuals at Step Three. If they do have the funding, I expect them to go well whichever division they are in.
I'm also not sure we'll ever see large numbers of home produced youngsters again even once that area is sorted. Gavin has a very good track record there and struggled to find youngsters good enough to play for a top Isthmian Premier side. Those who are good enough tend to be in academies further up the food chain. The London location works against Hamlet due to the large number of clubs.
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Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
The Isthmian Premier will have to absorb 3 of the 4 teams relegated from National South, whereas the Southern Premier South will only get Hungerford from National South, so if anything one of the Isthmian's existing teams (or those promoted from its own regional divisions) will be shifted to the Southern League.
Our new division will have a much smaller footprint than when were last in it, as it's now one of 4 regional divisions at that level instead of 3. We're a bit too close to the edge for comfort if we get stuck here for a few years and candidates need to be found to balance the numbers elsewhere.
AveryDave
Well-Known Member
Would imagine there's a chance that AFC Sudbury would be shifted into the Southern Premier Central, and Basingstoke Town could go to the Southern League Premier South?
Not sure how the allocations are worked out, but you could argue that a team within the M25 like Walton & Hersham are a better fit in the Isthmian Premier than a team on the southern coast like Bognor Regis.
And would there be a chance of a team like Hendon moving back to the Isthmian Premier, at the expense of a team further north like Potters Bar?
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Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
It's generally done by proximity to motorway routes and neighbouring clubs. The Southern Premier South already has several clubs within the M25, such as Hanwell, Hendon and Met Police. Basingstoke will certainly go into the Southern Premier South, as will either Walton & Hersham or Hanworth. The Isthmian South Central (which would be more accurately named "West") is effectively a feeder to the Southern Premier South, as the Southern League has two divisions at Step 3 and another two at Step 4, whereas the Isthmian and Northern Premier Leagues each have just one Premier Division at Step 3 and three regional divisions at Step 4.
The boffins on this forum are generally fairly accurate at predicting who goes where. (There are maps for each step linked in the first post, which are updated regularly.) The picture should be clearer this evening after the remaining play-off finals have been decided.
Bognor Regis ought to be a strong candidate for the Southern Premier South if someone needs to move but don't forget their chairman is the ubiquitous Jack Pearce, who sits on every FA committee you can think of, so if it doesn't suit them to move you can bet he'll pull the strings to make sure they stay where they want to be. Sudbury looks like a candidate for the SPC, as all the other Suffolk clubs are in that division. If you look at the map in the link the projections look a lot more straightforward. The biggest issue seems to be whether to accommodate Chesham and Berkhamsted in the same division, or to split them even though they're only 6 miles apart. Today's Step 4 promotion final between Didcot and Ware will have a bearing on this outcome. Ware isn't far from Bishop's Stortford, so they could be placed in the Isthmian Premier even though they're currently in the Southern League.
Great link. Fascinating stuff. I'm gutted that I might have been able to finish ticking off all the NLS grounds next season but also can't lie and say I'm excited about all the potential new ones in the Isthmian. Seems most of the aways I did back then are no longer in the division
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
I only had Taunton left to do in NLS, although I'd like to have done Weymouth again and I only managed to visit Torquay when we played Truro there. I'll only have Bowers & Pitsea (where Hashtag share) and Aveley (if they lose today's promotion final) in the ILP. I've done Horsham and Potters Bar as a neutral but not with the Hamlet. Margate, Folkestone, Hastings and Lewes are all good trips, and Whitehawk is a day out in Brighton. Cray Wanderers might be an additional new ground if it's ever completed. I thought it was supposed to be ready for next season but the saga seems to be dragging on for even longer than our own redevelopment.Great link. Fascinating stuff. I'm gutted that I might have been able to finish ticking off all the NLS grounds next season but also can't lie and say I'm excited about all the potential new ones in the Isthmian. Seems most of the aways I did back then are no longer in the division
I'm not in possession of the exact amounts and, even if I were, I wouldn't reveal them. However, there is nobody in Step 2 with the numbers you have quoted for players. You would not compete at Step 4 on that playing budget. Have a look through the Chippenham squad and tell me they all come for £100 per week. I hate to say it, but fans of all clubs are so far detached from reality when it comes to costs of competing at the various levels. The club's wages as a whole are in the accounts so you can get a rough idea from there as to our costs per week for everybody employed.
AveryDave
Well-Known Member
AverageJoe
...
"We cant build a team for next season without signing players from other clubs when we have no other teams below men's first XI level."
If that's true then that's a massive oversight.
Surely a priority would be to link up with local youth clubs in the area as feeders to DHFC, giving a clear pathway through to the team for those are are talented enough.
Sure, that's a ten year plan, but pretty much every successful team has at least a reserves and am u18s etc.
I'm only chipping in as an outsider BTW.
If that's true then that's a massive oversight.
Surely a priority would be to link up with local youth clubs in the area as feeders to DHFC, giving a clear pathway through to the team for those are are talented enough.
Sure, that's a ten year plan, but pretty much every successful team has at least a reserves and am u18s etc.
I'm only chipping in as an outsider BTW.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Do they? Reserve teams were generally ditched years ago higher up the leaguesat least. Replaced by academy/under 23 type competitions. They do have under 18 teams but I don't think many teams at all end up with significant numbers coming through to the first team. One every few years would be a pretty successful youth program for most.
AverageJoe
...
Every team I've worked with has had a youth set up that eventually feeds into the first team.
I was a u7-u12 coach at Tonbridge Angels (sorry).
But also there are other local clubs that they could partner with in the area too.
I was a u7-u12 coach at Tonbridge Angels (sorry).
But also there are other local clubs that they could partner with in the area too.
I've always thought there are a lot of young up and coming players below NLS that would give their right arm to play for Dulwich for moderate recompense; I would rather rebuild and develop them than recruit more players on their way down. They would, like Dulwich players of old, give their all for the club. Hopefully we can retain Sanchez, Quade, Jack, Charlie, Danny, and Joe (and I expect I've missed a few) to add in experience. I don't know how we get the up and coming in for trials, but it would be worth putting effort into. I'm sure we fans could help with the administration of an event.
scousedom
Well-Known Member
Al Cunningham
Brockley Hamlet
So Aveley beat Hornchurch , so Hornchurch for us next season.
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
That's essentially what we did in 2009, taking on the ASPIRE Academy previously affiliated to Fisher Athletic before they went bust, which was set up and managed by Gavin Rose who was appointed as our first team manager that summer. It was initially a great success. Our Isthmian D1S promotion winning squad included half a dozen graduates of that academy, notably Ethan Pinnock who is now a regular starter for Brentford in the Premier League after playing more than 200 first team games for the Hamlet from 2010-2016. (He'll be 29 at the end of this month.) Erhun Oztumer, the star player in that team and now playing in the Turkish Super Lig for Adana Demirspor, was with ASPIRE during its Fisher days. Unfortunately the abrupt sacking of Rose in September severed that link. His successor Paul Barnes had initially been headhunted to build a replacement academy while acting as interim first team manager, but then he got the first team job and was sacked at the beginning of March after one point from 10 games with 28 goals conceded, so once again we need to find an academy director who knows what they're doing before we can move forward on this front.
DHFC had earlier taken on a local junior club in 1990 with teams from U10-U18, operating as Dulwich Hamlet Juniors. Tony Dolby and Carl Cort both graduated from those teams to have lengthy professional careers without appearing in Hamlet's first team. Kenny Beaney progressed all the way from U10s to first team captain at the Hamlet, as well as having spells with other semi-pro clubs before returning for our last promotion season, and he's now with Leatherhead. The ASPIRE teams were only U18 and U16 to the best of my knowledge and were combined with a full time educational programme, which caused a conflict with the existing junior set up and that link appears to have been lost several years ago.
In short, it's complicated and we've ended up with a messy situation that's come to a head during a season when lots of things have gone wrong.
People like Jayden Clarke for instance. We never seemed to pay enough attention to recruiting players like that from clubs one or two steps below us, but nevertheless they're people already with other clubs and diligent managers (whether that's Gavin, Barnesy or Hakan) should already know about most of them if they're good enough. Then we really need some sort of reserve or development team of our own for them to play in, as most of them won't be instantly ready for regular first team football.
I've always valued continuity in our team, players who are here year in year out and develop a genuine bond with the club. I hope most of those players who've alredy been here more than one season will remain. National South seems like a bit of a stagnant pond for players in the 25-35 age bracket, who were mostly affilliated to pro clubs in their younger days but are never going to play above that level again. They just seem to circulate among the clubs in that division on an annual basis, putting in varying amounts of commitment for a few hundred quid a week. Each summer managers offload half their players and bring in very similar replacements for no real overall improvement. It felt like quite a depressing division to be in at times.
AverageJoe
...
Thank you. That's a brilliant reply.
Moroccan Sunset
Well-Known Member
The 8k per month figure is laughable. I genuinely think that's more likely to be the figure per week.
Pink Panther
Well-Known Member
I can't believe they're spending £8k a week either. It's 4 years now since our chairman told a fans forum that the median spend in this division was £250k a season (and £750k in the National Division) which equates to about £6k a week for a 40-42 week season. I've no idea how much that will have increased since then but Ben had Chippenham in the bottom four in his predictions spreadsheet on one of the other threads, along with the three clubs who actually finished below us. It seems like a fairly stable club, they reached this level a year before ourselves and replaced their manager from within the coaching staff late last season, when they finished 7th. If Ben's calculations predicted them finishing 21st of 24 that suggests a budget believed to be on the skinny side. Looking at the pen pictures for their squad, nearly everyone was there last season plus a couple joining from Hungerford and one from Hemel. The only obvious big name I can see is Matt McClure, a striker who was a big money signing for Gloucester from Maidstone a couple of years ago, and he wasn't playing on Saturday. He arrived in January when they were struggling and their form dramatically improved since. Other recent recruits include another from Gloucester and one from Taunton, which suggests maybe they found some extra short-term funding to push themselves clear of danger.
I tend to take all rumoured figures for other clubs with a pinch of salt. I recently saw Alan Dowson quoted saying Dartford only have the 11th biggest budget in our division. Then again, he sounds like the Geordie handyman from Alan Partridge's travel tavern, so perhaps the reporter misheard him?
Thanks Pink Panther that's a really interesting reply. Running a youth/academy set up takes time and money and people, of course, but Balham FC have managed to do it (teams from U8 up to the men's first XI playing at Level 9), and Peckham Town too. There seems to have been a bit of a bust up between the club and Dulwich Hamlet Juniors, but losing Gavin + the Academy + etc, while a blow, does give us the chance to build something new.
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