Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Recent attacks in Iraq

What were you doing or is it best not to ask

then again I remember being at a free party the night the bombing began on Belgrade, it was as if nothing had happened
I went on the No Nato Bombs demonstrations. Marching alongside people with dodgy looking symbols and banners in a language I don't understand, and having abuse hurled at us by people with different dodgy looking symbols and banners in a language I don't understand. That was after some years of a conflict that confused the hell out of most people here. I can understand why they didn't take much notice.
a few years later, thousands here were on the streets the night of the Iraq War commencing.
much simpler to grasp. Unlike what's going on now.
 
Yeah, but it all helps to maintain those "severe" & "critical" threat levels.

There is a severe threat to this country. It's citizens are having their heads chopped off home and away.

It may be we caused it and may be just about to make it worse, but we can justifiably feel threatened. I don't need Government to make me conclude that another 7/7 is possible.
 
The Tornados have flown 3 sorties now and not dropped any munitions. What's the problem? If there aren't any targets then what's the point of going there? Did the Yanks get there first?

How much is all this going to cost anyway?
 
The Tornados have flown 3 sorties now and not dropped any munitions. What's the problem? If there aren't any targets then what's the point of going there? Did the Yanks get there first?

How much is all this going to cost anyway?

air operations are governed by an Air Tasking Order, an incredibly complex document that governs exactly what every single aircraft will be doing for every second its in the air - its purpose is to ensure that aircraft don't bump into each other, that there are tankers in the right place at the right time for every aircraft that needs them, that each area of operations - and each period of operations - is covered by AWACS aircraft, as well as defence suppression aircraft, search and rescure aircraft should an aircraft go down, and to ensure that if a package of aircraft attack one target, another package doesn't blunder into another target 3 miles away 10 minutes later to be warmly recieved by every machine gunner and missileer who was woken up by the first attack.

ATO's take between 24 and 96 hours to build up - and of course they are updated by bomb damage assessment on targets already hit - it would not surprise me if the Tornado's don't get factored into the strike packages till at least monday or tuesday, and even then they may well be prized and used more for their surveilance capabilities than their attack capabilities. they are armed at the moment on the 'off chance' that they see something worth hitting while doing a surveilance mission, so infact they may see things to hit, but because they have a list of targets/areas to collect intelligence on, instead of spending time/fuel attacking one target within one area, they'll just pass the targetting information onto the Battlespace Management Team on the AWACS aircraft who will then pass the task onto another package of aircraft.

in terms of cost, bombs and missiles have a shelf life - if they don't get used in war before that date they'll get used in practice before that date, the people will all be paid the same whether they are flying over Iraq or playing with themselves in the UK. fuel consumption will go up, but the aircraft will be flown anyway, and the aircraft involved came into service in the mid-1980's and are planned to be retired by 2019/2020.
 
That's really interesting. It sounds like you know what you're talking about. Why didn't the MOD tell everyone that, unless they did and the news channels didn't explain it. All the talk was that the aircraft would be operational the next day, which to ordinary people sounds like they'd be bombing IS. The French announced their airstrikes pretty rapidly as I recall.

Asuming they do actually drop some munitions we can assume that the consumption rate will be much higher than normal practice and so will not only the fuel usage but the wear and tear on the aircraft, and the tankers too. I've never heard of a war that was cost-neutral.
 
That's really interesting. It sounds like you know what you're talking about. Why didn't the MOD tell everyone that, unless they did and the news channels didn't explain it. All the talk was that the aircraft would be operational the next day, which to ordinary people sounds like they'd be bombing IS. The French announced their airstrikes pretty rapidly as I recall.

Asuming they do actually drop some munitions we can assume that the consumption rate will be much higher than normal practice and so will not only the fuel usage but the wear and tear on the aircraft, and the tankers too. I've never heard of a war that was cost-neutral.

the MOD don't do complex, technical explanations - not only do half the MOD press team know no more about such things than i know about brain surgery or speaking Esperanto, but they know that even if the 'defence' correspondants in the media understood it (they usually don't), such detailed stuff would never get passed the editors desk - it doesn't have big tits, or a weepy back-story, or have 'celebrity' in the title. and thats just the Broadsheets..

yes, war costs, but most of the expendible stuff is just part of a pre-programmed cycle of expenditure - the big cost of wars is expansion of force: employing more people, buying lots more high value stuff.. this will see larger numbers of Enhanced Paveway IV bombs and Brimstone missiles being bought to replace stocks used, but it won't see more crews being recruited or aircraft being bought - and even then the headline figures (£40k for an EPaveway IV, £65k for a Brimstone) are misleading - the MOD pays 20% VAT on everything it buys, the companies involved pay corporation tax, their employees pay income tax and NI etc...

in terms of wear and tear its not really an issue - the aircraft will be bought/designed with a certain number of flying hours, take-offs/landings, and a 'fatigue index' in mind, and that will be worked out with a peacetime/wartime mix factored in to it. sometimes of course circumstances mean that the mix doesn't happen - the perfect example being the RAF's C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft: Iraq and Afghanistan have run through the flying hours, take off cycles, rough feild operations and harsh manouvering calculations like a dose of the shits - so much so that the'll be retired 10 years earlier than originally planned because they'll be utterly shagged.

actually, for the Tornado's, the wartime flying is less harsh than peacetime flying - in the UK they bomb around at 200ft bending trees nd scratching rocks, in Iraq they'll tootle up to 20,000ft, fly nice easy patterns and generally have a fairly relaxing time...
 
ATO's take between 24 and 96 hours to build up - and of course they are updated by bomb damage assessment on targets already hit - it would not surprise me if the Tornado's don't get factored into the strike packages till at least monday or tuesday, and even then they may well be prized and used more for their surveilance capabilities than their attack capabilities.

They've deployed with Litening II (made in Israel!) not RAPTOR so they are not doing any meaningful recce beyond the stoker peering over the canopy rail with rheumy eyes. Really the Tornados are a net negative to the coalition effort as they are slow, hard to refuel and have very poor information management capabilities. They are taking up slots in the ATO that could be used by more capable platforms. They are just there to provide a visible demonstration of the anti-Daesh coalition's breadth and because the UK government likes this sort of thing.
 
Utter uninformed nonsense that takes a pr release from neo-isis as gospel and that doesn't know about the fighting that's been going on here at this distance for months now - and doesn't even take into account the building up of the potential threat to non-ISIS areas that the airstrikes coalition is busily engaged in. You think they have WMDS as well?
 
gabi, why are you even on this board? No one wants you here anymore - and you evidently don't want to be here either - maybe you're having trouble finding people who'll put up with you where you are now. You offer nothing apart from semi-racist lashing outs, spite, bitterness and predictability.

But, for now, whilst you are still here, leave the grown up threads to grown ups.
 
Last edited:
...Baghdads pretty much taken.

no, a city of 7-8 million, 20 km wide and 15km deep is not taken when one small-scale engagement takes place on its outskirts.

an example from recent history is worth recalling here - in 2003 the US Army sent an Armoured Regiment right into the centre of Baghdad on a 'Thunder Run'. it drove in in broad daylight, fought all the way to the city centre, inflicted significant casualties on the defending forces, made its point about its ability to go where it chose when it chose, and then drove out. Baghdad, even after that, had far from fallen.
 
i am a wanker - just caught the end of the news

oops
There have been fevered reports of them being one mile from baghdad today. All sourced from an anglican vicar and ran by the mail. No serious players even gone near it. Kobane - still 5 miles away. As they have been for some time.
 
no, a city of 7-8 million, 20 km wide and 15km deep is not taken when one small-scale engagement takes place on its outskirts.

an example from recent history is worth recalling here - in 2003 the US Army sent an Armoured Regiment right into the centre of Baghdad on a 'Thunder Run'. it drove in in broad daylight, fought all the way to the city centre, inflicted significant casualties on the defending forces, made its point about its ability to go where it chose when it chose, and then drove out. Baghdad, even after that, had far from fallen.

TBH if one armoured regiment went all the way from Purley to Trafalgar Square, shot up the place, and then went back down the A23 unharmed every man and his dog would know that London had fallen.
 
Has a place seen greater calamity since WW2 than Fallujah? Desperate waves of fighting and destruction again and again.
 
the MOD don't do complex, technical explanations - not only do half the MOD press team know no more about such things than i know about brain surgery or speaking Esperanto, but they know that even if the 'defence' correspondants in the media understood it (they usually don't), such detailed stuff would never get passed the editors desk - it doesn't have big tits, or a weepy back-story, or have 'celebrity' in the title. and thats just the Broadsheets..

yes, war costs, but most of the expendible stuff is just part of a pre-programmed cycle of expenditure - the big cost of wars is expansion of force: employing more people, buying lots more high value stuff.. this will see larger numbers of Enhanced Paveway IV bombs and Brimstone missiles being bought to replace stocks used, but it won't see more crews being recruited or aircraft being bought - and even then the headline figures (£40k for an EPaveway IV, £65k for a Brimstone) are misleading - the MOD pays 20% VAT on everything it buys, the companies involved pay corporation tax, their employees pay income tax and NI etc...

in terms of wear and tear its not really an issue - the aircraft will be bought/designed with a certain number of flying hours, take-offs/landings, and a 'fatigue index' in mind, and that will be worked out with a peacetime/wartime mix factored in to it. sometimes of course circumstances mean that the mix doesn't happen - the perfect example being the RAF's C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft: Iraq and Afghanistan have run through the flying hours, take off cycles, rough feild operations and harsh manouvering calculations like a dose of the shits - so much so that the'll be retired 10 years earlier than originally planned because they'll be utterly shagged.

actually, for the Tornado's, the wartime flying is less harsh than peacetime flying - in the UK they bomb around at 200ft bending trees nd scratching rocks, in Iraq they'll tootle up to 20,000ft, fly nice easy patterns and generally have a fairly relaxing time...
Thanks for the reply. I just have a question about the VAT. If the MOD is registered for VAT then it would be able to claim back the input tax it paid; normally only end-users not registered for tax would have to bear that cost (like you and me). Do you know if that is the case?

The wear and tear issue may well end up being like the Hercs if this thing goes on for years, as predicted. And they need re-fuelling, I think, so that's going to impact on the tanker fleet.

I think the govt should come clean and give us some cost estimates.
 
There have been fevered reports of them being one mile from baghdad today. All sourced from an anglican vicar and ran by the mail. No serious players even gone near it. Kobane - still 5 miles away. As they have been for some time.

The vicar is a useful source of local rumour, no more. And it certainly wouldn't be surprising to hear that Baghdad is rife with such fears at the moment. The non-fearmongering elements of the mainstream media are not filling in some of the crucial gaps, making it hard for me to judge the situation. The vicar's fears will also be compounded by a complete lack of faith in the Iraqi army, although I am not suggesting there are no good reasons for that.

For example, from a later, more expansive Facebook post of his today:

Greetings from Baghdad. People are very fearful the nation looks as if it has collapsed. The usual hectic and crazy streets were this morning almost empty. The news from our friends in areas surrounding Baghdad is equally worry the Islamic State. ISIS or DAASH as they are known locally are very close to Baghdad. We do not really know what is happening all we know is that people are very afraid we know that civilians have been killed in air strikes we know that there are huge battles with ISIS and we know that our army is not very efficient.

This morning I was with one of my soldiers who is assigned by the government to protect me. I asked him what he would do if he saw ISIS coming. He told me he would take off his uniform and run. So I asked if he took seriously his role as a soldier to fight and protect his people he assured he did not. He told me he just did it because he needed the money.
 
I saw some news reports recently that the US-led airstrikes have been targeting oil and gas installations. These may be under the control of IS, but surely the mandate doesn't include destroying Syria's infrastructure? This stuff is going to take years to rebuild at $$$$ cost!
 
I saw some news reports recently that the US-led airstrikes have been targeting oil and gas installations. These may be under the control of IS, but surely the mandate doesn't include destroying Syria's infrastructure? This stuff is going to take years to rebuild at $$$$ cost!

i had heard that a proportion of the oil/gas stuff that had been targetted was 'makeshift' - though quite what proportion, and how 'makeshift' is a matter unexplored...

much as i'd take a similar view about the desirability of canning Syria's remaining income generation capability, truth is if IS are going to be defeated - politically as well as militarily - then their cash flow needs to dry up, and the even grimmer truth is that destroying their ability to make money through oil and gas is going have a quicker impact than waiting for the gulf states to turn off the private funding tap.
 
i had heard that a proportion of the oil/gas stuff that had been targetted was 'makeshift' - though quite what proportion, and how 'makeshift' is a matter unexplored...

much as i'd take a similar view about the desirability of canning Syria's remaining income generation capability, truth is if IS are going to be defeated - politically as well as militarily - then their cash flow needs to dry up, and the even grimmer truth is that destroying their ability to make money through oil and gas is going have a quicker impact than waiting for the gulf states to turn off the private funding tap.

I don't know how you can have makeshift installations either. I heard that IS are very rich anyway, quite aside from the oil and gas. They've got millions of $$ from robbing banks and other crime, and they're funded by various states/individuals, so destroying the energy installations won't have that much effect, I suppose.
 
Back
Top Bottom