Problem with homegrown British Muslims
- Thread starter mears
- Start date
david dissadent
New Member
There has been a Belgian suicide bomber in Iraq, I think he may have been a convert as well. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4488642.stm
The Hamburg cell proved that people from Germany are prepaired to kill themselves. I personaly feel it is a matter of resources. There are so few suicide bombings that indivual personality takes a bigger role than national politics. Al Queada is not SMERSH, it is a operation that lives on the edge with only so many intelligent and capable people so they have to be very careful where they invest there resources. The UKs foriegn policy closeness with the US, the domestic unease towards that closeness means that after Spain and along with Italy they are the two most vaulnrable members of the Coalition. It would be interesting to see one day, what measure of resources, especialy the most valuable kind: human, AQ has focussed on the UK. al Zwahiri seems to have taken a personal interest in getting the 7/7 and the failed follow up operation of the ground and running. If al Queada is focusing its best western operatives on the UK then it stands to reason they will pick up on whatever is available in the UK. They may feel strongly the UK is the most likely member of the coalition to crack under a terror onslaught.
French foreign policy in Algeria is pretty hostile to Islamism. They have the foriegn policy motive, especialy for young Algerians. Id be willing to bet France has a bigger problem of radicalising youth, just they are not getting the focus from AQ.
Whats more the natural connection to French Islamists is Algeria. The Algerian government has crushed an Islamist uprising and probibly has pretty good tabs on the dissadent groups there now, who they can pass on to there very close alliance with France.
In Pakistan things are far more complex with many within ISI having sympathies towards al Queada and often some personal contacts. The Taliban was and ISI proxy, and inderectly a Saudi one. This dynamic may also have a role in the Pakistan based al Queada feeling that there is a blind spot here to be exploited.
I also get the sence that many young white far left British are every bit as incenced at the UK government, and if the resistance was more open and less focused on the necessity of martydom, they would join. (i.e. happy to help planting bombs aginst government and army targets.) I am not talking about 100 000 white youths, perhaps no more than a 1000 or so. The sort who are also involved in the most extream animal rights protests.
It is the exclusivity of al Queada (sunni muslims only) and the personal cost (you gotta die doing it) that excludes this source of radicals.
I do not know the demographics and so on of other European nations but I will be willing to bet that UK muslims are amoung those with the highest ratio of middle class sucess stories as well. One of the profiles of the suicide bombers is that they have gone from being very secular in life style to embrassing Islam. People comming from succesfull families (not wealthy just settled) who rediscover there religion and with many families being relativly well off, there is a large pool of them. (does that make sence).
Oh well.
The Hamburg cell proved that people from Germany are prepaired to kill themselves. I personaly feel it is a matter of resources. There are so few suicide bombings that indivual personality takes a bigger role than national politics. Al Queada is not SMERSH, it is a operation that lives on the edge with only so many intelligent and capable people so they have to be very careful where they invest there resources. The UKs foriegn policy closeness with the US, the domestic unease towards that closeness means that after Spain and along with Italy they are the two most vaulnrable members of the Coalition. It would be interesting to see one day, what measure of resources, especialy the most valuable kind: human, AQ has focussed on the UK. al Zwahiri seems to have taken a personal interest in getting the 7/7 and the failed follow up operation of the ground and running. If al Queada is focusing its best western operatives on the UK then it stands to reason they will pick up on whatever is available in the UK. They may feel strongly the UK is the most likely member of the coalition to crack under a terror onslaught.
French foreign policy in Algeria is pretty hostile to Islamism. They have the foriegn policy motive, especialy for young Algerians. Id be willing to bet France has a bigger problem of radicalising youth, just they are not getting the focus from AQ.
Whats more the natural connection to French Islamists is Algeria. The Algerian government has crushed an Islamist uprising and probibly has pretty good tabs on the dissadent groups there now, who they can pass on to there very close alliance with France.
In Pakistan things are far more complex with many within ISI having sympathies towards al Queada and often some personal contacts. The Taliban was and ISI proxy, and inderectly a Saudi one. This dynamic may also have a role in the Pakistan based al Queada feeling that there is a blind spot here to be exploited.
I also get the sence that many young white far left British are every bit as incenced at the UK government, and if the resistance was more open and less focused on the necessity of martydom, they would join. (i.e. happy to help planting bombs aginst government and army targets.) I am not talking about 100 000 white youths, perhaps no more than a 1000 or so. The sort who are also involved in the most extream animal rights protests.
It is the exclusivity of al Queada (sunni muslims only) and the personal cost (you gotta die doing it) that excludes this source of radicals.
I do not know the demographics and so on of other European nations but I will be willing to bet that UK muslims are amoung those with the highest ratio of middle class sucess stories as well. One of the profiles of the suicide bombers is that they have gone from being very secular in life style to embrassing Islam. People comming from succesfull families (not wealthy just settled) who rediscover there religion and with many families being relativly well off, there is a large pool of them. (does that make sence).
Oh well.
There are people *within* the UK pakistani community (a very loose "group" which simply includes anyone with any kind of affiliation or ancestry surely?) who are involved in terrorism. This is not the same thing as there being a problem "with the community" or the community being "a problem".mears said:
Embracing "English culture" (or Scottish, Welsh, Irish or whatever) is not an issue - or at least it is nothing to do with terrorism. I lived in Japan for a year and only learn basic Japanese. I didn't however plot to kill anyone while there (unlike the Om cult who struck in Tokyo that year).
The last terrorist who almost killed me was some vile racist piece of shit who left a nail bomb in Brixton while I was standing about 30 yards away. He was "white british" and would probably be in agreement with you about the pakistani community being a "problem" in the UK.
TeeJay said:
You just want to argue about the semantics of various words. There is a problem in the Pakistani community in Britian, they are not a problem as a whole.It seems some of them are trying to kill civilians on planes and trains.
Just stating the obvious.
Wonder if that makes me a rascist
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
You're no threat to me trigger though i am disappointed you didn't call round for tea and crumpets.Rentonite said:
Shit Rents I'd of flown you over from France myself
No shit it's cheap as chips but you must travel in this see through sealed plastic bag So what you been up to Travis i didn't know Le Pen was back on the circuit.
Oh well that's a damn shame i have many friends in France and my little brother lives in Dortmund. An opportunity missed there i fear.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
So mears what's your experience with the UK Pakistani community?mears said:
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Diamond said:
I think it has something to do with the immigrant experience in the various countries.
At least until fairly recently, immigrants to the US were 'americanized', and were usually happy to do so. That country promoted the concept that americans should leave old things in the old country, and become like everybody else. There are some famous exceptions to that, of course.
I'm not sure about britain, but I suspect that it's similar to Canada, which talks of the Cultural Mosaic; in other words, a country made up of members of many different cultures who are encouraged to retain large aspects of the identities they had back in their country of origin. The difficulty with this is that, along with maintaining positive cultural traits, like colourful clothing, or unusual but tasty food, they can also foster the animosities and prejudices that live in the mother country.
That might help explain why Canada had Sikh extremists who killed hundreds of India-bound air travellers in the Air India bombing, or possibly might explain the recent terror arrests in the toronto area of young muslims intent on, among other things, beheading the Prime Minister.
You don't seem to get these disaffected groups in the US, plotting and carrying out activities linked to nationalism or religious zeal brought over from home.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
TeeJay said:
She was the only woman arrested. Did none of the other 24 have wives or girlfriends, and if they did, why were they not arrested for questioning?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
TeeJay said:
I have to wonder. Judging by these boards, british seem almost embarassed by any show on nationality or national pride. How would immigrants to such a place learn that their new home is worthy of love and protection?
Blackmushroom
New Member
mears said:
Bit of a factual error there mate. The first group of bombers included someone of Jamaican ancestry. The second group of bombers who failed were all Africans if I seem to recall.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
That's a good question. What might British people be proud of? Probably worth another thread...
The Atlantic slave trade, the Highland clearances in Scotland, the Famines in Ireland and India, the firebombing of Dresden, the Opium Wars against China, the use of concentration camps in the Boer war....?
So what are Canadians proud of? The burning of the White House in the War of 1812?
I'm going off topic, sorry.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
yield said:
So there's nothing good about your country?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
TeeJay said:
To start with, most Vancouverites like their city and country.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
TeeJay said:
You asked how we do it in Vancouver. I answered your question.
You didn't really answer it. You just seemed to make a vague implication that whereas people in Vancouver like their city and country, people in the UK don't and that this Vancouverite attitude helps teach immigrants that their new home is worthy of love and protection whereas the supposed lack of overt 'national pride' in the UK is both equivalent to not liking their city/country and that this leads to a more radicalised 2nd and 3rd generation of British pakistanis (as opposed to other groups or generations).
Except you didn't actually articulate all this, you did your normal trick of posting about three words and leaving the rest hanging there.
Maybe one of these days you will do us the favour of sharing some of your ideas and thoughts with us, rather than making us join up the rather sparse mental dots?
Except you didn't actually articulate all this, you did your normal trick of posting about three words and leaving the rest hanging there.
Maybe one of these days you will do us the favour of sharing some of your ideas and thoughts with us, rather than making us join up the rather sparse mental dots?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
It's called monkey see monkey do. If the surrounding social ethos is one of acceptance and liking of where one lives, it's more likely that newcomers will pick up on it. Same if the ethos is one of discontent and dislike with one's surroundings.
Immigrants to Vancouver become Vancouverites, and immigrants to London become Londoners, with all that that implies.
Immigrants to Vancouver become Vancouverites, and immigrants to London become Londoners, with all that that implies.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
TeeJay said:
I believe in economy of expression, assuming that the person reading has a certain level of ability to comprehend.
I know that newspapers write to something like a grade four level; I didn't think that was necessary here.
Richard Reid was not a "british born" muslim in that sense
he only converted after doing too many drugs and hanging with the wrong crowd whilst trying to find himself spiritually
I know this personally
he used to be a prolific well-known graffiti artist locally
he only converted after doing too many drugs and hanging with the wrong crowd whilst trying to find himself spiritually
I know this personally
he used to be a prolific well-known graffiti artist locally
Similar threads
