Problem with homegrown British Muslims

[TeeJay]

No I don't think you can reduce it to that level of simplicity. I simply stated the example of the pledge to try and provide contrast to English nationalism. But I do think there is an exceptionally strong and socially cohesive sort of nationalism in the US that prizes the nation above all else when it is perceived to come under attack.

Look, if there's one place in the West where terrorists would find it pretty easy to train and arm then it ironically is probably North America. There's plenty of Muslims there yet there's little evidence of radicalism, I think American nationalism has a role to play in that along with other elements such as the intimidation of American cultural hegemony.

So you think that shoving this objectionable american nationalism down American Muslims throats makes them less radical? You think that if there was more British nationqaoism it would make British Muslims less radical?

Sorry, I completely disagree.

The 'pledge' thing in American schools is not a major part of people's lives when compared to getting a job, being treated decently by classmates, neighbours and colleagues, feeling (or not feeling) discriminated against, feeling welcome and so forth.

The other thing is that you can't simply say that one group of Muslims an be expected to be identical to another. They may well have completely different cultural and socio-economic backgrounds and profiles.

There is even the whole 'self-selection' aspect here: Who are the British Muslims (eg Pakistani and Bangladeshi? 1st generation from 1960s onwards coming to work in industrial jobs, eg textiles) and what kind of conditions do their children have. Compare this with American Musilms - which counties did they immigrate from? What kind of work did they come to do? Why did they choose America? What kind of prospects do their children have?

I think you really need to stop projecting your own concerns about flags etc and ask some concrete questions about the actual people involved.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

There is even the whole 'self-selection' aspect here: Who are the British Muslims (eg Pakistani and Bangladeshi? 1st generation from 1960s onwards coming to work in industrial jobs, eg textiles) and what kind of conditions do their children have. Compare this with American Musilms - which counties did they immigrate from? What kind of work did they come to do? Why did they choose America? What kind of prospects do their children have?

Most of the Muslims I know here are from rich families in the old country. (One Iranian guy I dated got $2000 a month from his family to live on back in the 80s.). There are a lot of Iranians who supported the Shah and a lot of Iraqis who tried to overthrow Sadam Hussain who live here. A lot of these are in favour of Bush's policies. The day they caught Sadam, there were Iraqi refugees driving down the main drag waving flags.

 

[Rentonite]

Just missed the clamp down in the airports (Whew!)
Back home safe!
uh may be those guys are just assholes drawn to the silly idea that protesting unchangeable history is a good thing.
"yea lets go kill a bunch of innocent people so we will be important"????
sounds just as stupid as allways.
and dont Fret Mr Fredia I went to Germany and France this trip......

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Just missed the clamp down in the airports (Whew!)
Back home safe!
uh may be those guys are just assholes drawn to the silly idea that protesting unchangeable history is a good thing.
"yea lets go kill a bunch of innocent people so we will be important"????
sounds just as stupid as allways.
and dont Fret Mr Fredia I went to Germany and France this trip......

You're Gerhard Laught, and I claim my $5.

 

[mears]

Who said the alleged bombers were pakistani?, They were British-Born.

Do you think the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in the middle east is justified mears?. Who started this whole thing?. (And I'm not talking about four weeks ago)

The slaughter of people is never justified. AL Queda started the war on 9-11.
There are my answers to your questions.

Do you think the actions of the alleged terrorists being held in Britian are justified on the grounds of British foreign policy? Do you believe the actions of blowing up planes is justified in response to British and American foreign policy?

 

[mears]

I think your a bit silly, Islam is very much an international religion, a central tenant of it is that faith transcends national boundaries. What they see when they see Iraq or Palestine being bombing, is not a Palestinian or an Iraqi, but rather someone like them, they share the same history of colonial oppression, and they see that the media thinks that muslims lives are worthless. They see the media try and create a false equivalence between 30 odd Israeli civilian deaths and 900 odd Lebanese deaths, and it seems obvious that an Israeli is 30 times more valuable than the Lebanese.

Thats is a nice representation of their beliefs. But lets all go on record here. Lets be open and honest and not beat around the bush so to speak. Speak your opinion.

I believe blowing up commercial aircraft is not justified. I believe the are demented and stupid. I believe they are pawns in the hands of Islamic fascists.

Do you believe such acts as blowing up a train with civilians going to work or blowing up commercial aircraft is justified?

Or is it only American who speak their opinions these days?

 

[mears]

Also mears, if you want to understand UK pakistan youth then you should:

1) Look at the history and culture of pakistan
2) The history and experience of pakistani immigrants in the UK
3) The pressures and environment pakistani youth (2nd and 3rd generation) find themselves in, both generally within UK society and especially now since 9/11 etc.

You say that there is "a big radicalization of British Muslims, namely British Pakistani Muslims" and "It seems to be a serious situation in the UK these days".

Have you ever been to the UK? Have you ever met or talked with a "British Pakistani Muslim"? You seem to be extrapolating from a tiny number of extreme cases to generalise about a vast number of people.

Personally I have never had any problems with "British Pakistani" youth - I am usually more wary of pissed-up "white british" arseholes when I go out. Of course this varies from place to place with more tensions in some towns, but this isn't soley or even mainly linked to Islam, Islamism or the middle east - there have been tensions between various communities which often boil down to race/racism and a lack of resources locally.

I am not even sure if there is a big link between poverty and people becoming radicalised: often it is well educated middle-class people who join radical political movements and serve as "foot-soldiers" for the cause - be it radical far left (more common in the 60s and 70s) or now radical Islamist. At root it is an extreme political movement (far more than the car burning in France for example).

I have been to many places around the globe but never Britian. I know America's minorities are not blowing up people on trains. There has been no such instance of home grown Americans in such an advanced terrorist stage as this group in the UK, except fot the OK city bombings.

I am sure most Pakistani British are decent, tax paying people. But my god, some are trying to kill as many innocent civilians as possible.

Thats is a problem in my book.

 

[revol68]

Thats is a nice representation of their beliefs. But lets all go on record here. Lets be open and honest and not beat around the bush so to speak. Speak your opinion.

I believe blowing up commercial aircraft is not justified. I believe the are demented and stupid. I believe they are pawns in the hands of Islamic fascists.

Do you believe such acts as blowing up a train with civilians going to work or blowing up commercial aircraft is justified?

Or is it only American who speak their opinions these days?

of fuckig course i don't think it is justified, of course they are being fucking used, but the simple fact is that whilst the US and UK continue to slaugther people in there hundreds there revenge is inevitable.

To be consistent in my opposition to terrorist atrocity requires me to be honest about the role of the US and UK governments, they are murderous bastards, no fucking better than some angry misguided kid, and in many ways much more cynical and evil.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You missed out UK foreign policy. Probably on purpose, right?

US foreign policy hasn't spawned homegrown muslim suicide bombers.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Who said the alleged bombers were pakistani?, They were British-Born.

)

The news say they're of pakistani heritage, or immigrants from pakistan.

 

[Dandred]

US foreign policy hasn't spawned homegrown muslim suicide bombers.

Not yet

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not yet

What: are you hopeful?

 

[Diamond]

So you think that shoving this objectionable american nationalism down American Muslims throats makes them less radical? You think that if there was more British nationqaoism it would make British Muslims less radical?

The fact that you have to add this on to my quoted post before you can start your diatribe is clear evidence of your talent for misrepresentation. I am not trying to make the point that we should have more nationalism. THAT IS YOU CONSTRUCTING A STRAW MAN SO THAT YOU CAN PRIME YOURSELF FOR A NICE LITTLE RANT.

You again return to the idea that the 'pledge' is the fulcrum on which my argument turns.

That is ridiculous.

I have already made it clear that I regard the pledge as symptomatic rather than essential to the point I'm trying to make. Pretending that American nationalism boils down to just saluting the flag every morning is absurd, as is your attitude.

All I'm trying to do is explore why America, with a large Muslim population and seemingly in the frontline of Islamic disapproval, has never had homegrown suicide bombers.

But you don't seem to want to have this discussion.

You seem to prefer to just rant on in a scattergun fashion at arguments that I'm not making.

And finally don't accuse me of 'projecting my concerns'.

I don't think I've ever seen a more hypocritical statement.

 

[Diamond]

US foreign policy hasn't spawned homegrown muslim suicide bombers.

This is the fundamental issue, but it seems that we can't discuss this without people sliding back into their most prejudical preset political positions.

 

[TeeJay]

I am sure most Pakistani British are decent, tax paying people. But my god, some are trying to kill as many innocent civilians as possible.

Thats is a problem in my book.

You are moving from specific people to a blanket statement about a whole ethnic/racial group. A terrorist is a terrorist - is doesn't matter much if they are black, white, or brown. If you are curious about people of Pakistani ancestry in the UK then I suggest you do some background reading of the kind I suggested.

 

[TeeJay]

All I'm trying to do is explore why America, with a large Muslim population and seemingly in the frontline of Islamic disapproval, has never had homegrown suicide bombers.

But you don't seem to want to have this discussion.

I am having this discussion.

I have told you that IMO you are completely wrong to say that american nationalism is the reason that there is less exteremism within American Muslim communities.

Your claim begs the question of why there seems to be more within British Muslim communities: you theory would suggest that the claimed lesser level of British nationalism means more British Muslim radicalism. You haven't said these words but this conclusion flows logically from your basic idea.

I am asserting that this is not correct.

I have already mentioned a number of factors and variables that might better explain the differences, yet you have not felt fit to discuss these or even acknowledge them.

Engage with my posts and we can have a discussion. Continue ranting an I am going to ignore you. Your choice.

 

[mears]

of fuckig course i don't think it is justified, of course they are being fucking used, but the simple fact is that whilst the US and UK continue to slaugther people in there hundreds there revenge is inevitable.

To be consistent in my opposition to terrorist atrocity requires me to be honest about the role of the US and UK governments, they are murderous bastards, no fucking better than some angry misguided kid, and in many ways much more cynical and evil.

The US and UK rid Iraq of Saddam, appartly UN sanctions were killings hundreds of thousands of Iraqis when Saddam was in power. The vast majority of deaths in Iraq are Iraqi on Iraqi. Bombing football matches, mosques and markets. These are Shia and Sunni going at it, not the west killing innocent civilians.

You see I give you specifics. You should try that as well.

 

[camouflage]

..They see the media try and create a false equivalence between 30 odd Israeli civilian deaths and 900 odd Lebanese deaths, and it seems obvious that an Israeli is 30 times more valuable than the Lebanese.

Stunningly insightful comment on the moral mathematics of our media, I shall be using this.

 

[mears]

You are moving from specific people to a blanket statement about a whole ethnic/racial group. A terrorist is a terrorist - is doesn't matter much if they are black, white, or brown. If you are curious about people of Pakistani ancestry in the UK then I suggest you do some background reading of the kind I suggested.

Of course it matters what group is committing terrorist atrocities. If one group is the overwhelming perpetrator than its that group which is in dire straights. Why is this groups young blowing up trains (Pakistani British) and this group (African British) not blowing up trains?

You ignore the problem at your own peril.

 

[mears]

Economics can't always explain everything but when one ethnic group falls behind its never good for society. This holds true for racial groups like African Americans or British Muslims.

"with Muslims underrepresented in politics and with few role models in wider British society to follow, some young Muslims are doubtless alienated. At a time when overall British unemployment has been the lowest in decades at about 5%, joblessness among Muslims still approaches 15%, according to the Office of National Statistics. The rate among Muslim youths is 22%. British Muslims also rank at the bottom of the tables in school degrees, quality of housing, and other indicators."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_30/b3944075_mz054.htm

 

[TeeJay]

Of course it matters what group is committing terrorist atrocities. If one group is the overwhelming perpetrator than its that group which is in dire straights. Why is this groups young blowing up trains (Pakistani British) and this group (African British) not blowing up trains?

It isn't a "group" that is committing these acts - it is individuals. You are also wrong to say it is exclusively pakistani youths - Richard Reid for example wasn't of Pakistani ancestry (he was the son of an English mother and a Jamaican father, born in England and converted to Islam), Germaine Lindsay (one of the four 7/7 bombers) was not either - he was born in Jamaica and his wife was English (both were converts to Islam). Haroon Rashid Aswat (alleged to be behind the 7/7 bombings) was of 'Indian origin' as was Mohammad Sidique Khan's (another 7/7 bomber) wife. There have been various other UK residents (but non-nationals) charged with terrorist offences in the UK of a whole range of nationalities - for example north african and middle eastern.

The 'Pakistan' connection is possible a function of the numbers of UK muslims who are of pakistani ancestry, but there is no evidence that Islamist terrorism in the UK is exclusively linked to the pakistani community - the evidence points to a wider identification with Islam and Muslims in general, not narrowly to Pakistan. There may well be connections that arise simply because Al Qaeda operations in tribal / Pashtun areas of the Pakistan and Afghanistan borders.

Again, mears, you would do well to actually inform yourself better of the background and details of what is going on before jumping to unwarranted conclusions. You simply cannot conclude that there is a specific 'problem' with the 'pakistan community' (whatever that means exactly) in the UK, based on a very small number of specific cases, like you seem to be doing.

It just doesn't reflect reality over here, as you would find out if you actually came and saw for yourself.

 

[rennie]

How did al Qaeda start the war on 9-11? Where the attacks born out of a vacuum? Did the US not do anything before that?

 

[TeeJay]

Al Qaeda did stuff before 9/11 as well.

 

[mears]

It isn't a "group" that is committing these acts - it is individuals. You are also wrong to say it is exclusively pakistani youths - Richard Reid for example wasn't of Pakistani ancestry (he was the son of an English mother and a Jamaican father, born in England and converted to Islam), Germaine Lindsay (one of the four 7/7 bombers) was not either - he was born in Jamaica and his wife was English (both were converts to Islam). Haroon Rashid Aswat (alleged to be behind the 7/7 bombings) was of 'Indian origin' as was Mohammad Sidique Khan's (another 7/7 bomber) wife. There have been various other UK residents (but non-nationals) charged with terrorist offences in the UK of a whole range of nationalities - for example north african and middle eastern.

The 'Pakistan' connection is possible a function of the numbers of UK muslims who are of pakistani ancestry, but there is no evidence that Islamist terrorism in the UK is exclusively linked to the pakistani community - the evidence points to a wider identification with Islam and Muslims in general, not narrowly to Pakistan. There may well be connections that arise simply because Al Qaeda operations in tribal / Pashtun areas of the Pakistan and Afghanistan borders.

Again, mears, you would do well to actually inform yourself better of the background and details of what is going on before jumping to unwarranted conclusions. You simply cannot conclude that there is a specific 'problem' with the 'pakistan community' (whatever that means exactly) in the UK, based on a very small number of specific cases, like you seem to be doing.

It just doesn't reflect reality over here, as you would find out if you actually came and saw for yourself.

There are exceptions but it was Pakistani Muslims on 7-7 and it seems mostly Pakistani Muslims involved with this failed attempt.

It is a problem.

 

[TeeJay]

There are exceptions but it was Pakistani Muslims on 7-7 and it seems mostly Pakistani Muslims involved with this failed attempt.

It is a problem.

Can you read? One of the 7/7 bombers was not pakistani - he was born in jamaica.

Can you point me to a list of people arrested/charged with (islamist) terrorist offences in the UK over the past few years (or who have blown themselves up or are key suspects still on the run)?

Can you also tell me how many of these people are of Pakistani ancestry?

Can you compare this with the profile of UK muslims? If these people were drawn randomly from the UK Muslim community would you expoect more or less people of Pakistani ancestry than this figure?

You haven't a clue, have you? You simply don't know.

Until you come back to this thread with some sensible and intelligent contribution I don't see much point trying to discuss this with you.

You are being a waste of time and effort, you are not not trying to make any kind of contribution or do even the most basic bits of research.

You just keep bleating on with the same claims, backed up by nothing at all.

Even worse, form where I am sitting (in a town with a fairly large Pakistani community) this kind of shite is the nasty, shit-stirring and dangerous crap that the local neo-nazi 'white power' cretins will be putting out. Thankfully noone here pays much attention to brainless bollocks like this. Most people can see that the terrorists are in no way representative of any 'community'.

 

[yield]

I believe there have been cases of American Muslims being involved in terrorism but I've only found this so far. No American Muslim Terrorists? (I need to double-check the reliability.) Admittedly nothing on the scale of the London tube bombings.

The "homegrown terrorists" in Britain come from areas known for their lack of integration or prospects and high unemployment.
It's much more a question of socio-economics than religion. As any good marxist will tell you.

 

[Dandred]

What: are you hopeful?

No, just realistic.

 

[mears]

Can you read? One of the 7/7 bombers was not pakistani - he was born in jamaica.

Can you point me to a list of people arrested/charged with (islamist) terrorist offences in the UK over the past few years (or who have blown themselves up or are key suspects still on the run)?

Can you also tell me how many of these people are of Pakistani ancestry?

Can you compare this with the profile of UK muslims? If these people were drawn randomly from the UK Muslim community would you expoect more or less people of Pakistani ancestry than this figure?

You haven't a clue, have you? You simply don't know.

Until you come back to this thread with some sensible and intelligent contribution I don't see much point trying to discuss this with you.

You are being a waste of time and effort, you are not not trying to make any kind of contribution or do even the most basic bits of research.

You just keep bleating on with the same claims, backed up by nothing at all.

Even worse, form where I am sitting (in a town with a fairly large Pakistani community) this kind of shite is the nasty, shit-stirring and dangerous crap that the local neo-nazi 'white power' cretins will be putting out. Thankfully noone here pays much attention to brainless bollocks like this. Most people can see that the terrorists are in no way representative of any 'community'.

Sorry, three out of the four suicide bombers on 7-7 were of Pakistani orgin.

As I said, most British Muslims, Pakistani British are good people. They have jobs (those lucky enough to have jobs) and get on with their lives, just want whats best for their families.

"Pakistani intelligence agents have arrested as many as 17 people, including British nationals, over an alleged terror plot aimed at blowing up US-bound passenger jets from Britain that Islamabad claimed was linked to al-Qaida."

http://www.ndtv.com/template/templa...Qaida." [url]http://www.slate.com/id/2147644

"Those arrested here range in age from 17 to 35. Nearly all are of Pakistani descent, most are middle class, two are said to be women — one of them pregnant."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14308625/

And a pregnant one as well. Bet she is a class act.

 

[sleaterkinney]

And a pregnant one as well. Bet she is a class act.

What the fuck do you mean by that?

 

[TeeJay]

Until you come back to this thread with some sensible and intelligent contribution I don't see much point trying to discuss this with you.

Still waiting