Problem with homegrown British Muslims

[mears]

Richard Reid, British Muslims going to blow up discos in Israel, Suicide bombers in London, trying to blow up planes and kill thousands of civilians.

Why is there such a big radicalization of British Muslims, namely British Pakistani Muslims? Institutionalized rascism, economic disparity or brainwashing of the young and impressionable?

It seems to be a serious situation in the UK these days.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Institutionalized rascism, economic disparity or brainwashing of the young and impressionable?

You missed out UK foreign policy. Probably on purpose, right?

 

[revol68]

Well all three but then the situation is worse in France, yet we haven't seen a corresponding rise in suicide bombers or militant islam.

The missing ingredient is foreign policy, that and the fact the government pursues patronising "multi culturalism" that gives a seat at the table to a small layer of Muslim "community spokespeople", who are rightfully seen as being a bunch of self serving Uncle Toms. And so whne these tubes preach about the need for "moderation", "moderation" bascially means sucking the dick of the establishment, cue the mad mullahs, who are able to articulate, albeit in a perverted way, the anger and hurt of the youth. They talk about standing up and fighting back, they talk about the big political issues, palestine, iraq, and afghanistan. This is the shit that makes suicide bombers, not the promise of 40 virgins, or some verse from the Koran.

 

[zoltan]

Gullible stupid people + religion is always going be a problem

hate is always going to be an emotion that the young can relate to & sells better than love.

 

[sleaterkinney]

You missed out UK foreign policy. Probably on purpose, right?

Absolutley, god forbid they might have a problem with US/UK/Israel murdering hundreds of thousands in the Middle east.

 

[TeeJay]

Richard Reid, British Muslims going to blow up discos in Israel, Suicide bombers in London, trying to blow up planes and kill thousands of civilians.

Why is there such a big radicalization of British Muslims, namely British Pakistani Muslims? Institutionalized rascism, economic disparity or brainwashing of the young and impressionable?

It seems to be a serious situation in the UK these days.

Maybe they are just the bravest, most resourceful, most politically active and most radical?

Whereas the French youth seem to just burn cars.

I don't think there is really a US equivalent as you don't have that many Muslims nor even that many people from the middle east or southern asian. A comparable group (eg numbers, age profile, economic profile) would maybe be 'Latino/Hispanic' but they are not Muslims obviously. Having said that the US has had its fair share of snipers, bombers and wannabe jihadis.

 

[mears]

Absolutley, god forbid they might have a problem with US/UK/Israel murdering hundreds of thousands in the Middle east.

Do you believe their actions justified? For instance, if Sudanese living in Britian were angry at British policy towards Sudan, where they believed UK policy was killing thousandsof their countrymen, should they try to kill British civilians in turn?

Is this anger expressed by British Muslim something other minorities should emulate when they believe their countriees foreign policy is evil?

 

[mears]

Maybe they are just the bravest, most resourceful, most politically active and most radical?

Whereas the French youth seem to just burn cars.

I don't think there is really a US equivalent as you don't have that many Muslims nor even that many people from the middle east or southern asian. A comparable group (eg numbers, age profile, economic profile) would maybe be 'Latino/Hispanic' but they are not Muslims obviously. Having said that the US has had its fair share of snipers, bombers and wannabe jihadis.

Yes, but American hispanics are not trying to blow up airplanes because of the Cuban embargo.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes, but American hispanics are not trying to blow up airplanes because of the Cuban embargo.

And the Cuban embargo can be compared to Iraq/Lebanon - how?.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Do you believe their actions justified? For instance, if Sudanese living in Britian were angry at British policy towards Sudan, where they believed UK policy was killing thousandsof their countrymen, should they try to kill British civilians in turn?

So if a country is killing civilians in your country, you wouldn't fight back?

 

[mears]

So if a country is killing civilians in your country, you wouldn't fight back?

the UK is attacking Pakistan?

DO you believe their actions are justified?

This where you will need the courage of your convictions.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Well all three but then the situation is worse in France, yet we haven't seen a corresponding rise in suicide bombers or militant islam.

The missing ingredient is foreign policy, that and the fact the government pursues patronising "multi culturalism" that gives a seat at the table to a small layer of Muslim "community spokespeople", who are rightfully seen as being a bunch of self serving Uncle Toms. And so whne these tubes preach about the need for "moderation", "moderation" bascially means sucking the dick of the establishment, cue the mad mullahs, who are able to articulate, albeit in a perverted way, the anger and hurt of the youth. They talk about standing up and fighting back, they talk about the big political issues, palestine, iraq, and afghanistan. This is the shit that makes suicide bombers, not the promise of 40 virgins, or some verse from the Koran.

Well said especially about orgs like the MCB etc...

 

[revol68]

the UK is attacking Pakistan?

DO you believe their actions are justified?

This where you will need the courage of your convictions.

I think your a bit silly, Islam is very much an international religion, a central tenant of it is that faith transcends national boundaries. What they see when they see Iraq or Palestine being bombing, is not a Palestinian or an Iraqi, but rather someone like them, they share the same history of colonial oppression, and they see that the media thinks that muslims lives are worthless. They see the media try and create a false equivalence between 30 odd Israeli civilian deaths and 900 odd Lebanese deaths, and it seems obvious that an Israeli is 30 times more valuable than the Lebanese.

 

[sleaterkinney]

the UK is attacking Pakistan?

DO you believe their actions are justified?

This where you will need the courage of your convictions.

Who said the alleged bombers were pakistani?, They were British-Born.

Do you think the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in the middle east is justified mears?. Who started this whole thing?. (And I'm not talking about four weeks ago)

 

[TeeJay]

Also mears, if you want to understand UK pakistan youth then you should:

1) Look at the history and culture of pakistan
2) The history and experience of pakistani immigrants in the UK
3) The pressures and environment pakistani youth (2nd and 3rd generation) find themselves in, both generally within UK society and especially now since 9/11 etc.

You say that there is "a big radicalization of British Muslims, namely British Pakistani Muslims" and "It seems to be a serious situation in the UK these days".

Have you ever been to the UK? Have you ever met or talked with a "British Pakistani Muslim"? You seem to be extrapolating from a tiny number of extreme cases to generalise about a vast number of people.

Personally I have never had any problems with "British Pakistani" youth - I am usually more wary of pissed-up "white british" arseholes when I go out. Of course this varies from place to place with more tensions in some towns, but this isn't soley or even mainly linked to Islam, Islamism or the middle east - there have been tensions between various communities which often boil down to race/racism and a lack of resources locally.

I am not even sure if there is a big link between poverty and people becoming radicalised: often it is well educated middle-class people who join radical political movements and serve as "foot-soldiers" for the cause - be it radical far left (more common in the 60s and 70s) or now radical Islamist. At root it is an extreme political movement (far more than the car burning in France for example).

 

[TeeJay]

Yes, but American hispanics are not trying to blow up airplanes because of the Cuban embargo.

No, but maybe some of the male youths are doing other naughty and illegal things? Add a bit of radical politics and voila.

edited to add:

You started by asking "Why is there such a big radicalization of British Muslims"

When people have attempted to say why, you have immediately asked "is it justified" and "do you support their actions".

These are two completely different questions.

Which one are you interested in? Do you even want to discuss and maybe start to understand or are you just looking to rehash a whole load of "terrorists are bad, no america is a terrorist, oh no it isn't, oh yes it is" baloney for the ten thousandenth time?

 

[revol68]

yeah it's more a movement of well educated kids who are disgusted by the world they see. it's kind of like how the IRA recruited mostly from well educated working class/ lower middle class kids. People who had kind of made it within the establishment framework but were also astutely aware that it was someone elses framework.

 

[zoltan]

True - US youth of whatever grouping doesnt seem to be very highly politicsied - not since Eldridge Cleaver and the like all those years ago.

and on a basic level - what the fuck do you expect with a belief system that stops young men form doing what young men "ought" to do ( biologically speaking ) ?

that testosterone has got to have a release somehow - look at the state of the catholic church.*


(* Please note that my utter disdain for all religion may bias my comments as such )

 

[TeeJay]

Maybe there is some influence from traditional Pakistani warrior traditions as well? Maybe there is some romance and mystique in the autonomous tribal areas in Pakistan that border Afghanistan - it the same way as many Americans find a romantic ideal of freedom in cowboys and the wild west and others end up heading to Montana and joining militia groups.

Why buy into a British culture that treats you like shit, at best patronises you if you do well and become 'British', but at the same time seems to be involved in killing your fellow Muslims - and in the case of Afghanistan may well be fighting Pashtun tribal members that you are somehow related to?

Why not be a 'real man' - just like an American youth might join the Marines for "dead before dishonour" etc, maybe a British pakistani youth might decide to join a jihadist group for 'death before dishonour'? A mixture of adventure, self-esteem, joining a gang, political and religious idealism, being able to say that you are getting revenge and hitting out at America and/or the UK, letting out any anger, hurt and humilation about life, feeling victimised and emasculated and treated like shit by racists.

I bet the kids who did the Colombine massacre had a lot of similar 'issues' but where not motivated to committ mass-murder then suicide by any great cause rather than bleak and self-destructive nihilism. In many ways the 7/7 bombers are far more understandable than the Colombine killers or the beltway snipers - but then again maybe there is something about the American love affair with firearms and random violence that Brits can't relate to?

Over to you mears. I would like a coherent and intelligent response.

 

[Diamond]

Re: The French situation.

It's not just that France's foreign policy is less antagonistic than Britain. A lot of the credit for the lack of attacks there must go to the way the state is set up. It's a centralised organisation with far greater powers than in Britain and if you are suspected by security services over there they are not scared of knocking some heads together because they know they are backed up by the law. Authoritarianism is a strong factor in the French case.

Btw yesterday has made me really jittery. I just heard a loud bang and no doubt it's some kind of skip being dropped on the ground or something, but you can't help but wonder.

 

[DarthSydodyas]

So if a country is killing civilians in your country, you wouldn't fight back?

He'd make film about it and get rich.

 

[scott_forester]

I tend to think one of the issues is that you have people who are politically active by have no real legitimate outlet to try and influence National politics.

 

[revol68]

Re: The French situation.

It's not just that France's foreign policy is less antagonistic than Britain. A lot of the credit for the lack of attacks there must go to the way the state is set up. It's a centralised organisation with far greater powers than in Britain and if you are suspected by security services over there they are not scared of knocking some heads together because they know they are backed up by the law. Authoritarianism is a strong factor in the French case.

Btw yesterday has made me really jittery. I just heard a loud bang and no doubt it's some kind of skip being dropped on the ground or something, but you can't help but wonder.

You think suicide bombers are scared to operate in France? because the only other way your point makes sense is if the french state was uncovering would be suicide bombers all the time.

you are correct though, if in error, the French states centralisation and it's dogmatic insistance on the "universal republic" has mean we haven't seen the co option of whole sections of the muslim population into the state apparatus and hence there is less of a vacumm for the mad mullahs.

 

[Diamond]

I don't think there is really a US equivalent as you don't have that many Muslims nor even that many people from the middle east or southern asian. A comparable group (eg numbers, age profile, economic profile) would maybe be 'Latino/Hispanic' but they are not Muslims obviously. Having said that the US has had its fair share of snipers, bombers and wannabe jihadis.

Well maybe not in proportion to the total population in the country. But there are substantial muslim communities in the US. There probably is a reason why there is little evident radicalism there and it probably has a lot to do with that particularly arrogant and repellent form of patriotism that sees schoolchildren salute the flag every morning. Imagine kids in Britain having to do that.

 

[Diamond]

You think suicide bombers are scared to operate in France? because the only other way your point makes sense is if the french state was uncovering would be suicide bombers all the time.

you are correct though, if in error, the French states centralisation and it's dogmatic insistance on the "universal republic" has mean we haven't seen the co option of whole sections of the muslim population into the state apparatus.

I don't think French security services allow any of these organisations the space, funds or time to ever move towards militancy. They've been countering terrorists for a very long time and often with much more brutality than over here. It's no secret that the French security services view ours with disdain when it comes to Islamic terrorism.

 

[revol68]

I don't think French security services allow any of these organisations the space, funds or time to ever move towards militancy. They've been countering terrorists for a very long time and often with much more brutality than over here. It's no secret that the French security services view ours with disdain when it comes to Islamic terrorism.

no they have been countering foreign Islamic groups, we are discussing militancy within the native muslim community. it doesn't matter how tough the french state is, if they are homegrown, hitting down hard on them would only be a band aid on a cancer.

 

[TeeJay]

Re: The French situation.

It's not just that France's foreign policy is less antagonistic than Britain. A lot of the credit for the lack of attacks there must go to the way the state is set up. It's a centralised organisation with far greater powers than in Britain and if you are suspected by security services over there they are not scared of knocking some heads together because they know they are backed up by the law. Authoritarianism is a strong factor in the French case.

France saw bombings on the Metro during the 1990s due to its involvement in Algeria.

...the GIA ['Armed Islamic Group' / 'Groupe Islamique Armé'] hijacked Air France Flight 8969, which was en route from Algiers to Paris in December 1994. The GIGN stormed the plane, preventing it from being crashed into the Eiffel Tower, reportedly its intended target.

In 1995-96, the GIA conducted a series of bombings in France. Analysis of a bomb with a failed trigger mechanism made it possible to identify a conspirator, Khaled Kelkal, who was shot and killed by French gendarmes on September 29, 1995. In late 1999, several GIA members were convicted by a French court for the 1995 bombing campaign.

In 1998, prior to the World Cup in France, in collaboration with the other European countries, launched a vast preventive operation against the GIA. About 100 alleged members of the group were arrested throughout Europe. In Belgium, security forces seized weapons, detonators and forged identity papers. On June 11, 1999, the GIA announced a jihad on French territory in a threatening letter addressed to the media...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Islamic_Group

French citizens have also been murdered and seriously injured in various attacks outside France, for example in the 1997 Luxor massacre, the 2002 Ghriba synagogue bombing in Tunisia (along with 14 German tourists), and the 2002 Karachi bus bombing where 11 Frenchmen were murdered.

 

[Diamond]

It was that series of bombings that lead the French intelligence services to focus on and take a hardline against Islamic terrorism. In the wake of 7/7 they were the first people to come out and say that Khan had been being monitored, on IIRC their advice, by MI5 but hadn't been sufficiently examined. It wasn't really concentrated on because the leak occured a day after the bombings and people thought it was the French just sticking their oar in and chastising our obviously insufficient security but all of it subsequently turned out to be true..

 

[TeeJay]

Well maybe not in proportion to the total population in the country. But there are substantial muslim communities in the US. There probably is a reason why there is little evident radicalism there and it probably has a lot to do with that particularly arrogant and repellent form of patriotism that sees schoolchildren salute the flag every morning. Imagine kids in Britain having to do that.

Are you saying that the 'pledge' would make American Muslims less radical and the lack of something similar in the UK makes British Muslims more radical? I don't think so.

The reasons probably have far more to do with the backgrounds of American Muslims and their experience of life in the US.

 

[Diamond]

Are you saying that the 'pledge' would make American Muslims less radical and the lack of something similar in the UK makes British Muslims more radical? I don't think so.

The reasons probably have far more to do with the backgrounds of American Muslims and their experience of life in the US.

No I don't think you can reduce it to that level of simplicity. I simply stated the example of the pledge to try and provide contrast to English nationalism. But I do think there is an exceptionally strong and socially cohesive sort of nationalism in the US that prizes the nation above all else when it is perceived to come under attack.

Look, if there's one place in the West where terrorists would find it pretty easy to train and arm then it ironically is probably North America. There's plenty of Muslims there yet there's little evidence of radicalism, I think American nationalism has a role to play in that along with other elements such as the intimidation of American cultural hegemony.