Peter Crouch joins the Dulwich Hamlet board

[Paula_G]

It's a huge jump to go from having no choice but to accept things pushed down on the club from above in the football hierarchy to actively and independently choosing to bring someone into the club.

Totally get that you're supporting this move and believe it's hugely positive, but in the first week of it being announced there's had to be a conversation with the other parties involved to make sure the way they communicate externally aligns with the club's values, and then a heralded association of our new Director with a major betting company.

Really hope these are teething troubles and not a sign of what's consistently to come.

If people would like that perhaps a democratic vote of say, shareholders, season ticket holders or just fans could be suggested to determine this one way or the other? This would widen the debate beyond the confines of say here on Urban75, The Moral Victory on FB or various Twitter accounts. Not going to prejudge others opinions but the dissenting comments on here & elsewhere are but a fraction of the average match day attendance. Might put together a few figures on that front…

 

[Paula_G]

It's fine to just be a non-league football club isn't it rather than some sort of proselytising organisation.

A football club has always been a proselytising organisation in a big way or a small way be it events to attract fans through the gates at PWYW games that kickstarted this Hamlet revival or a friend saying to another “We had a great time at Champion Hill on Saturday, come & join us next week”. At Trans Pride Saturday was chatting to complete strangers who enjoyed football but felt alienated from the game because of their sexuality or gender identity. These people had been to Champion Hill & realised that there can be a safe space for them there. If that proselytising then I’m more than happy to be a proselytist…

 

[editor]

Abhor Paddy Power more than most mainly due to their hideously transphobic adverts of the past however this has to be a matter for Peter’s own conscience. Perhaps this documentary gives the club the chance to emphasise our values in relation to betting a wider airing. I’m prepared to see the positive slant to this. After all hands up anyone that walked out of the Carlisle United FA Cup game because of the 888 Sport adverts and demanded that in future Dulwich Hamlet did not enter the FA Cup to avoid a similar association with betting companies? View attachment 275677

Betting is a fucking evil industry. It causes real misery for millions of people around the world. And now Hamlet have elected a board member who actively promotes gambling for money. It's not a good look for a club that once stood out for its strong ethics and community principles.

 

[AveryDave]

If people would like that perhaps a democratic vote of say, shareholders, season ticket holders or just fans could be suggested to determine this one way or the other? This would widen the debate beyond the confines of say here on Urban75, The Moral Victory on FB or various Twitter accounts. Not going to prejudge others opinions but the dissenting comments on here & elsewhere are but a fraction of the average match day attendance. Might put together a few figures on that front…

I was thinking more to the stance of the club when the Isthmian took sponsorship from Betting.net in 2017 as a guide to the wider attitude towards gambling specifically - checking back they were quite clear that at that time Dulwich Hamlet didn't support the betting industry and wouldn't personally accept sponsorship from betting companies. But you're absolutely right, wider feeling a few years on could be different, especially with all that's happened in that time - it's dangerous to rely on echo chambers.

As I said previously, we need to trust the club that it's making the right decision at this time, and there are clearly benefits that could come out from it - but we should also be honest with ourselves if there are mis-steps.

 

[Paula_G]

The onus here is on Peter then. After all through the course of this documentary I’m sure that it will be made pretty clear the sort of industries that Dulwich WILL not accept support from (and that includes betting). Maybe we can use this to awaken up football to the evils of betting & bring its links with football to the fore sparking genuine debate on the subject rather than doing the right thing in a sport where few others are…

 

[editor]

The onus here is on Peter then. After all through the course of this documentary I’m sure that it will be made pretty clear the sort of industries that Dulwich WILL not accept support from (and that includes betting). Maybe we can use this to awaken up football to the evils of betting & bring its links with football to the fore sparking genuine debate on the subject rather than doing the right thing in a sport where few others are…

Do you think he'll rip up his contract with Paddy Power then? Because as it stands, Hamlet have elected someone to their board with a very strong association to promoting gambling. How does that align with the club's principles?







And the kind of company Paddy Power are:

Paddy Power failed to stop gambler after ‘epic’ losses, court finds

Gambling giant Paddy Power encouraged a known gambling addict to bet vast sums of money despite knowing he could not afford to pay for his losses, the High Court has found.

www.standard.co.uk

Bookmakers 'helped gambling addict squander injury compensation'

Lawyers claim Ladbrokes and Paddy Power let Liam McCarron’s losses reach £500,000

www.theguardian.com

Paddy Power has drawn criticism in the past for offering controversial markets, such as odds on the first species to be driven to extinction by the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico,[24] on an assassination of United States President Barack Obama,[25][26] and on the potential extinction of the polar bear in December 2009.[27]

Paddy Power's advertising campaigns have also been criticised. One showed sight-impaired footballers kicking a cat, for which the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) received 400 complaints.[28] Another involved the model Imogen Thomas alongside a tagline using a double entendre.[29]

Paddy Power has also been criticised for not paying out on bets with large odds. In May 2009, when Shane Lowry won the Irish Open, it stated that it would not pay out on the 3000/1 odds which had mistakenly been offered and instead reached 'an arrangement' with those involved.[30][31]

Paddy Power also received hundreds of complaints in February 2012 when the company released an advertising campaign to distinguish "the stallions from the mares" by placing transgender women in the crowds at the Cheltenham Festival. The ASA ruled that the advert could not be broadcast in the United Kingdom.[32][33]

Paddy Power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And this is what passes for humour from them, running adverts that are offensive towards transgender people:

The advertising regulator is to investigate a TV ad by Irish bookmaker Paddy Power that asks viewers to spot the "transgendered ladies" among a crowd of racing fans at the Cheltenham festival.

The Advertising Standards Authority received 360 complaints that the campaign is offensive towards transgender people.

Paddy Power and broadcaster BSkyB were accused of inciting transphobia with the campaign, which promised to make the festival's Ladies' Day "even more exciting by adding some beautiful transgendered ladies: Spot the stallions from the mares".

The ad goes on to show a series of shots of well-dressed racegoers with a voiceover guessing which are men and which are women.

The campaign, which broadcast on Sky Sports at the weekend, immediately drew criticism from the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.

LGBT Lib Dems Northern Ireland said Paddy Power has brought "shame on itself" and that the marketing tactic was in poor taste at a time when the UK government is trying to wipe out all forms of prejudice in sport.

"To use the subject of transgender in such a degrading and mocking way is a clear-cut case of transphobia," said the organisation on its website.

"What is worse is that the advert appeared during Sky Sports' very popular Soccer Saturday not just once but three times. So while we have the UK government running a campaign to wipe out transphobia in sport we have the nation's number one sports channel showing such an advert."

Paddy Power faces investigation over 'transgendered ladies' ad

ASA launches inquiry after hundreds of complaints about TV campaign asking viewers to 'spot the stallions from the mares'. By Mark Sweney

www.theguardian.com

 

[Paula_G]

And which do you believe has more power in changing someone’s opinions? A posting on urban75 or working with a club with strong anti-gambling principles? And in the case of the advert you have mentioned working with a transgender woman at Dulwich Hamlet?

 

[AveryDave]

The onus here is on Peter then. After all through the course of this documentary I’m sure that it will be made pretty clear the sort of industries that Dulwich WILL not accept support from (and that includes betting). Maybe we can use this to awaken up football to the evils of betting & bring its links with football to the fore sparking genuine debate on the subject rather than doing the right thing in a sport where few others are…

Which brings us back to the nervousness that some have - until we know more and potentially see what comes out of the editing suite, it's impossible to guess how it will turn out.

My personal position (for what it's worth) hasn't changed - I trust the decision the club has made but will wait with a degree of nervousness until we see the output, whether that's the contribution that Crouch makes to the club, or the portrayal of the club and the people involved as part of the programme.

 

[editor]

And which do you believe has more power in changing someone’s opinions? A posting on urban75 or working with a club with strong anti-gambling principles? And in the case of the advert you have mentioned working with a transgender woman at Dulwich Hamlet?

You've lost me here. Hamlet have invited someone on the board who has a strong commercial association to a betting company known for mocking transgendered people.

How can that possibly be a good thing?

 

[editor]

Which brings us back to the nervousness that some have - until we know more and potentially see what comes out of the editing suite, it's impossible to guess how it will turn out.

My personal position (for what it's worth) hasn't changed - I trust the decision the club has made but will wait with a degree of nervousness until we see the output, whether that's the contribution that Crouch makes to the club, or the portrayal of the club and the people involved as part of the programme.

It will be edited to make it a compelling show that attracts advertisers and an audience. That doesn't always guarantee a truthful representation.

 

[Paula_G]

mocking transgendered people.

Could I gently remind yourself and anyone else than transgender is an adjective not a verb or a noun? Thank you..

 

[editor]

Could I gently remind yourself and anyone else than transgender is an adjective not a verb or a noun? Thank you..

Thank you for the reminder. Care to answer my point now please?

 

[Cyclodunc]

I'd like to be wrong, but I doubt Crouch will stop advertising betting.

 

[gnar182]

Not arsed what he advertises, he could be shagging lasagne on ITV4 for money for all I care.. as long as he brings something worthwhile to the club for however long he’s here it’s all good.

 

[B.I.G]

Crouch won’t bring anything other than what is needed for TV. That is clear from his public statements or lack of them.

 

[Paula_G]

Thank you for the reminder. Care to answer my point now please?

This advert was nearly a decade ago, PP were censured by the ASA for running the advert & this is not an advertising tactic they have repeated in the ensuing years. We are actually in an era where transgender representation in advertising is moving forward - think McCain chips, the Coop, Paris Lees in the Pantene adverts and Starbucks “What’s Your Name?” campaign. Personally I’d rather have a decent level of transgender visibility in this documentary. Things like focusing on ten year adverts rather reminds of the GC dogpile I regularly get in relation to sport and toilets. No one is stopping me playing sport with my trans inclusive female team. No one is stopping me using the correct toilet. Personally I’m more concerned about visibility & healthcare.

 

[Paula_G]

I'd like to be wrong, but I doubt Crouch will stop advertising betting.

Maybe, maybe not…but rather than giving up without trying I'm happy to go down fighting…

 

[1927]

Not arsed what he advertises, he could be shagging lasagne on ITV4 for money for all I care.. as long as he brings something worthwhile to the club for however long he’s here it’s all good.

Forget about the morals then?

 

[editor]

Maybe, maybe not…but rather than giving up without trying I'm happy to go down fighting…

If the club have "strong anti-gambling principles," as you claimed, it does rather beg the question why they've welcomed a high profile celebrity who is currently the poster boy for a huge gambling company on to their board.

 

[gnar182]

Forget about the morals then?

Depends what your moral threshold is really doesn’t it, pretty subjective we’re not all going to agree on that.

e.g. I’m fine with him advertising paddy power but if he’s going to start clubbing seals in the bar I’m going to object.

Crouch won’t bring anything other than what is needed for TV. That is clear from his public statements or lack of them.

Yea appreciate that point. I’m choosing to try and look positively at the situation after taking into account the subsequent statements by the club and Ben Clasper since the news broke. More than fair to be sceptical though.

 

[editor]

Not arsed what he advertises, he could be shagging lasagne on ITV4 for money for all I care.. as long as he brings something worthwhile to the club for however long he’s here it’s all good.

Yes, that's exactly the kind of attitude that led to the club getting so much publicity in the past and attracting so many new fans.

Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if the new fans attracted to Dulwich after the TV show think much the same as you.

 

[Paula_G]

If the club have "strong anti-gambling principles," as you claimed, it does rather beg the question why they've welcomed a high profile celebrity who is currently the poster boy for a huge gambling company on to their board.

That is not for me to answer but I’ve said before it is not up to us to dictate to any director what they do in their everyday work.

 

[B.I.G]

Depends what your moral threshold is really doesn’t it, pretty subjective we’re not all going to agree on that.

e.g. I’m fine with him advertising paddy power but if he’s going to start clubbing seals in the bar I’m going to object.



Yea appreciate that point. I’m choosing to try and look positively at the situation after taking into account the subsequent statements by the club and Ben Clasper since the news broke. More than fair to be sceptical though.

I personally am getting a bit tired of being told how we face “financial ruin”.

If we do lets cut the budget back to Ryman Prem levels and have a sustainable club rather than chase yet more media attention.

 

[editor]

That is not for me to answer but I’ve said before it is not up to us to dictate to any director what they do in their everyday work.

There is always the option of not inviting people on to the board who stand for the very thing the club is supposedly "strongly" opposing.

That might show some consistency in what the club is supposed to stand for.

 

[Paula_G]

I personally am getting a bit tired of being told how we face “financial ruin”.

If we do lets cut the budget back to Ryman Prem levels and have a sustainable club rather than chase yet more media attention.

Really? Based on past experience I’d expect fans to start grumbling that we’re not competing our rivals. I can another Croydon FC scenario where the team was shipping half a dozen or more goals a week. Decent Isthmian League level players might be attracted but would they commit the time & effort, first to the travel & training but also remaining motivated when they are being routed every week?

 

[1927]

Depends what your moral threshold is really doesn’t it, pretty subjective we’re not all going to agree on that.

e.g. I’m fine with him advertising paddy power but if he’s going to start clubbing seals in the bar I’m going to object.



Yea appreciate that point. I’m choosing to try and look positively at the situation after taking into account the subsequent statements by the club and Ben Clasper since the news broke. More than fair to be sceptical though.

To be honest I’d be more ok with seal clubbing than the betting stuff. If I was in any position of power betting advertising would be banned and apps/websites would be banned.

 

[B.I.G]

Really? Based on past experience I’d expect fans to start grumbling that we’re not competing our rivals. I can another Croydon FC scenario where the team was shipping half a dozen or more goals a week. Decent Isthmian League level players might be attracted but would they commit the time & effort, first to the travel & training but also remaining motivated when they are being routed every week?

Fans aren’t watching the game. Its just a place to bring your children.

Maybe Crouchy can do something to clear out the poshos behind the goal shouting jolly good dulwich.

 

[Paula_G]

Fans aren’t watching the game. Its just a place to bring your children.

Maybe Crouchy can do something to clear out the poshos behind the goal shouting jolly good dulwich.

Inverse snobbery as someone might once have said… Did you regard every obscure band you saw as a kid as selling out the moment they moved from playing the New Cross Inn to the Marquee?

 

[B.I.G]

Inverse snobbery as someone might once have said… Did you regard every obscure band you saw as a kid as selling out the moment they moved from playing the New Cross Inn to the Marquee?

Dulwich made its choice and can live with the consequences. If the powers that be don’t care about the level of support for the team they can make do with upping the wages.

I’m sure the documentary will show the level of support for the team from the terraces.

 

[gnar182]

There is always the option of not inviting people on to the board who stand for the very thing the club is supposedly "strongly" opposing.

That might show some consistency in what the club is supposed to stand for.

Yes. I’m sure Herr Crouch’s first decree as director will be to ban community initiatives, promoting diversity, charity collections and anything else positive that the club has aligned itself with over the years