Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No. If the guy had not been killed it would still have been unnecessary for him to show the cartoons and tell the muslim kids they could leave.
Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France
- Thread starter Spymaster
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I haven't mentioned TOO graphic. This is a very specific situation with significant context.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
The killer was a refugee so back to Chechnya have fun dodging the HINDS.
Or Sudan Saudi Syria Afghanistan Somali. Glorious peace loving countries where those attitudes are welcome.
Europe doesn't need savages. It's not difficult you don't have to like others you just can't use violence on people who don't agree with you.
Don't like that?
We will comprise you can use violence against those that insult the prophet.
Others can use violence against Muslims oh but wait your a tiny minority, guess you should have gone with the tolerance approach.
I suggested myself that you could do this lesson without showing the pictures. However, it wasn’t a student who did the killing. Also what if some of the students were offended by the main topic being discussed. And this information made its way outside the school and inflamed some nut job. Should he have not even broached this as a subject.
There’s also a lot of speculation on here, that this teacher deliver the lesson in a clumsy, offensive manner. Where has it sent this?
Not deliberately winding people up and offending them is one thing. Avoiding subjects because of fear of violence. Fuck that.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
stethoscope has pretty effectively just described the hole.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
"Any picture. We're discussing the general principle of FoE. Should I take it upon myself to say or print something that is certain to cause offence when I can make my point perfectly well without doing so?"
Not only does that maintain the discussion but it also keeps the muslims engaged which itself could be fruitful.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Regardless of what LBJ believes, many, many Muslims feel the entire cartoons episode to be viciously racist against them
I wonder if he'd defend so strongly but ineffectively a teacher who had used cartoons from der stürmer in a class about anti-semitism. In the light of his remarks about primary sources I rather think he might. Cos if he has the right to offend a religion, who doesn't?
There are any number of ways this could have been dealt with without entering the cartoons into evidence. Without saying you don't have to be here, but we'll be carrying on and you with your quaint beliefs will miss out. Islam of course not the only iconoclast faith, a range of Christian churches oppose them - albeit less lethally these days. It's very much not something peculiar to Islam.
Of course what happened to the teacher should not have happened. But it is hard to see how the killing would have occurred without the earlier lesson. Is this victim blaming?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well you were the one who went charging down the homosexuality rabbit hole. It hadn't been mentioned before you brought it up.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
But where's the fun in that? The only joy to be found engaging with Muslims is that gained in offending them. If we persuaded the religious to abandon their outdated notions we'd lose a whole world of lols[/LBJ]
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Your ups and downs getting confused
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
We could flip it around and discuss why (and what to do about) some people are "provoked" by some things.
'cos I get where danny la rouge and stethoscope are coming from. I hold (I think) the same values as them.
Many don't.
What next? When people are being murdered, assaulted, jailed, sacked, deported etc. for expressing these values, or simply being themselves.
I don't know of any school that I've worked at where I would have been able to show those cartoons to a class and not faced consequences.
...and as I alluded to above, I gave lived in a Islamist state and attempted - in my own ways - to challenge what I believed to be wrong and promote what I believed to be right. There were consequences for that, not just for me but for those around me. Did I change anything? I don't know.
But the world is a divided and messy place right now.
'cos I get where danny la rouge and stethoscope are coming from. I hold (I think) the same values as them.
Many don't.
What next? When people are being murdered, assaulted, jailed, sacked, deported etc. for expressing these values, or simply being themselves.
I don't know of any school that I've worked at where I would have been able to show those cartoons to a class and not faced consequences.
...and as I alluded to above, I gave lived in a Islamist state and attempted - in my own ways - to challenge what I believed to be wrong and promote what I believed to be right. There were consequences for that, not just for me but for those around me. Did I change anything? I don't know.
But the world is a divided and messy place right now.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Right. Several posters have suggested that the only muslims offended are the nutters who'd condone the execution whereas, as you say, they're also offensive to plenty of more moderate muslims too. Just because they don't cut your head off doesn't mean they're not offended.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
If you are offended by a depiction of the Prophet then it is the image that provokes offence, irrespective of who sees it. So no cartoons of Mohammed should be seen by anyone, anywhere. Like that idea?
the murder is what most people came here for, as it’s both terrifying and extremely close to the bone for us in the UK. Only 3 years ago an unhinged kid blew himself and 23 others up in my hometown.
the murder is what most people came here for, but now it’s turned into a tug-of-war between people believing that it’s cool to goad an already marginalised ethnic demographic. And those who clearly see that the images didn’t have to be shown, nor did an atmosphere of ‘us and you‘ need to be cultivated by the teacher.
What fucking teacher encourages students to sling it anyway? Alright they always used to make me stand outside or go to the Headmaster’s office but I was taking the piss. I never have witnessed an educator tell their kids ‘if you don’t like this obscene shit I’m gonna show then do one’
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Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I think those cartoons are racist, orientalist caricactures, as well as offending certain religious sensibilities. I therefore don't think they should be reprinted or used in classrooms at all, except by those prepared to admit that they are racist, and I'm rather suspicious of those who think it's appropriate to do so.
Obviously I don't think people should be killed for publishing or using them. But also people should stop it, except for the sort of teaching context where you might be examining racist stereotypes or other baiting of minority groups by dominant groups.
Obviously I don't think people should be killed for publishing or using them. But also people should stop it, except for the sort of teaching context where you might be examining racist stereotypes or other baiting of minority groups by dominant groups.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Uhuh. I thought the example would demonstrate to you the fallacy of your argument. Instead you went charging off in a direction I had never even imagined - provocative gays kissing and giving offense - and frankly, I could just keep quoting your subsequent posts for the rest of the thread and anyone coming afresh to it would be appalled. If you hadn’t dug yourself in you’d see that yourself.
Athos
Well-Known Member
So what? Do that have a right not to be offended? To the extent that they can reasonably expect non-believers to comply with the rules of their religion? Tolerating things that offend you is the quid pro quo of being able to express your own opinions.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think the analogy is useful, though. If there are circumstances in which a teacher would hold back from showing a same-sex kiss in class when they wouldn't if it were a heterosexual kiss, then that teacher, knowingly or not, is helping to perpetuate bigotry against homosexuality. There are no ifs or buts in that situation - either you treat people equally or you don't. And I think it's useful as an analogy because I don't doubt that exactly this still happens in the UK or France or wherever. A few years ago, it would have been mandated to happen here, lest the teacher fall foul of the bigoted clause 28 legislation. Today it might still happen in part in order not to offend a particular demographic of the students' parents - hence the fight for equality of treatment in the gentle-as-fuck-really 'no outsiders' ideas of the teacher in Birmingham.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
This is just bollocks and we're going round in circles.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
True bollocks, though.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Actually it's not. It's exactly what people like the murderer we are discussing here believe.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Here we go again. It's not about anyones rights. It's about whether the use of the cartoons, IN THIS CASE, was sensible.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This is where top down multiculturalism and moral relativism has left us. Homogenising groups to an assumed reactionary “authenticity”, and abandoning oppressed groups to the fundamentalist right wing that the process appoints as their rightful leadership.
It’s liberal cowardice, and it walks away from struggles within communities in the name of anti racism, when actually it is a terrible form of exactly that: racist essentialism.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I am aware that the main objection to the cartoons has been in religious terms, but that doesn't stop them also being racist. I think it likely many people are offended by their racism too, but that within religious communities there is more resonance in reaching for the religious response. That's not ideal, but they're still racist cartoons.
A couple of academic pieces here discussing racism and the cartoons. If people are interested and don't have access I could put them up:
A couple of academic pieces here discussing racism and the cartoons. If people are interested and don't have access I could put them up:
give over with your melting pot of theoretical framework.
Fucking theoretical framework bingo over here, and legs 11, you almost got a full house.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's far from a useful analogy because it relies on a bunch of assumptions that simply aren't present in the case we're discussing.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The cartoon has been posted on this thread. You say it is obscene here. You just accept the idea that it's obscene. You really think that? See this is exactly the problem. A same-sex kiss will be seen as obscene by some religious parents, no doubt by many of the same religious parents who objected to the cartoons. Do you pull that as well?
Athos
Well-Known Member
It really is. It's about the right of children to see the material they're being taught about, versus the right of others to demand that material isn't shown to anyone because it contravenes their religious rules.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It’s not a game. It’s only too real.
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