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Palm: Pre, webOS & app discussion

Woo great (potentially...it's not like we'll get 'em in the UK for 6-8 months) handsets on a network groaning already. The phrase "swansong" springs to mind...I don't want Palm to die but as a company they're pretty much a headcase.

WebOS is a fine piece of technology but the crap build quality of the handsets and the dire marketing outside of the US has hindered them.

Only option is to sell to another company before Android overtakes them. Seriously compare an HTC handset to a Pre and it's embarassing...sure its form is nice but everything else looks cheap. We sent all our 8 demo models back to Palm after they all broke within 6 weeks of use - on 2 the slider stopped working FFS! Sticking to the BlackBerry for work phones here because for their many faults they hardly ever break.
 
Yep I've not played with one pre that didn't feel cheap and plasticky. Who do people thing are likely to buy them at this point?
 
Your logic is desperately faulty: Android offered £10m to developers three years ago.

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/calling-all-developers-10m-android.html

.. and then there's this: "Behind the scenes are the venture capitalists, such as Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which recently established the $100 million iFund to invest in mobile applications for the iPhone"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9905858-7.html

OK in the context of people presently saying that Palm is doomed my logic may well come across as faulty. The fact they are offering developers money is not proof that they are in the last desperate throws of life. I stand by the notion that its a desperate tactic though, as it was when others did it, for they are all desperate to get a lions share of the mobile market. The iFund is slightly different in that its an investment rather than a competition, and I cant tell quite how mad keen on it Apple were/are as they arent the ones actually doing it, but maybe it just appears less desperate in hindsight because of the success the app store has had.

At the end of the day these gimmicks have no significance compared to the real big motivators for developers. If they are developing for commercial reasons then they want a platform that has lots of users who are prepared to buy apps. If they want to have fun & enjoy developing then they want good development tools and a platform that has some good features they can harness in interesting ways (+decent handsets). They would prefer to use languages that they have some familiarity with already. Thats about it really, and these factors can overcome a lot of the other crap, which is why so many still develop for iphone despite the negative things Apple do.
 
Yep I've not played with one pre that didn't feel cheap and plasticky. Who do people thing are likely to buy them at this point?

See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.

A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.
 
See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.

A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.

675 million is fuck all for the patents for someone like Google or Nokia to have in the battle chest.

Nokia would be wise to snap them up for patents but also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.
 
Article by Jean-Louis Gassée (ex-Apple, 1981-1990) about the issues Palm have, particularly from the sales and finance side.
With this in mind, we turn to Palm’s latest quarterly numbers released March 18th, 2010: 960,000 units shipped but… only 408,000 “sold-through”. The latter terms refers to units actually sold to paying customers, as opposed to the 960,000 shipped to distribution channels such as Verizon and Sprint.

...after the 29% fall, Palm still seems “worth” about $670M.
Why?

Because someone might buy Palm for more than its “book value”, the accounting number. That's the speculators' bet.
I think that theory will be disproved.

http://www.mondaynote.com/2010/03/21/who-will-buy-palm/

I really had hoped that Palm's technology could triumph over their poor management decisions (announcing product and not saying when it would be available or for how much for far too long, picking disastrous telco partners, awful adverts, confusing the market with additional devices at almost the same price, woeful product launches and support outside of the US), but it's not looking very positive for them at the moment.
 
also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.

Im not sure that would fit with their plan, which seems to be to based on supporting 2 different opensource royalty-free platforms. They have been busy on this front: Symbian OS evolves into Symbian Platform, and Maemo (as used on their tablets and N900) has merged with Intels Moblin to become MeeGo. Silly names.
 
675 million is fuck all for the patents for someone like Google or Nokia to have in the battle chest.

Nokia would be wise to snap them up for patents but also as they could desperately use PalmOS to finally kill off horrible symbian.

Hmm, yeah, Nokia's a possibility, but they have a new OS, Maemo on the N900, but its just a Linux skin job. PalmOS is gonna be better than that. Its not like they cant have another. Nokia is huge.

Had a go in the iPhone...um, O2 shop the other day and webOS defo one of the nicer OS's out there. It's not quite the panacea that Ed makes out, but its got some nice features that I'd like on the iPhone and are well know to be missing.
 
Im not sure that would fit with their plan, which seems to be to based on supporting 2 different opensource royalty-free platforms. They have been busy on this front: Symbian OS evolves into Symbian Platform, and Maemo (as used on their tablets and N900) has merged with Intels Moblin to become MeeGo. Silly names.

I dont think anyone really takes Sybmbian or Maemo that seriously as a target platform. The spectacular failure of the Ovi store is a testament to how little Nokia understand this smart phone market.

Thats not to say they are in trouble, they have huge penetration in Africa and other lower end markets. But this Android and iPhone party is well out of their comfort zone.
 
Symbian has enough of the wider market share to be taken very seriously, but Id agree that Nokia are in danger of dropping the ball when it comes to the new smartphone era we are finding ourselves in, or of hardly picking up the ball in the first place. I had an N800 internet tablet back in the day and it wasnt too bad for a pre-iphone device, but seems quite clunky in 2010 and yeah Maemo certainly doesnt have the userbase to be taken too seriously, at least not at this point, and Im not really sure what the merger witht he intel stuff will mean for the future.

All the same Im really not sure that snapping up another OS is the solution, even if its quite a good OS. If webOS had a lot more love and a lot more apps it would seem like a better proposition but then Palm wouldnt be in trouble, and if Nokia reach a point of needing to harness someone elses platform in future then I would think Android would be a better bet.
 
Its really important to view the numbers in context I guess. My personal attitude is that as a developer I want to target the group that has proven themselves to be happy with micro payments and have high enough spec handsets to provide a powerful user experience.

Your right however that the sheer volume of Symbian in the lower end market has to be considered. That's fine, but honestly its for people in those markets to address themselves. I looked at starting a small WISP in Goa recently and it could be done but to be honest the return by western standards just is not worth it. Even if you scale up and get great volume.

Android would be an obvious choice (I would be really excited if we saw nokia feature phones running android). Androids minimum requirements are lower than Symbian so its technically possible. However a port of WebOS could work if Nokia did the modifications well.
 
Its because they have a lot of stock to sell and Palm are desperate to sell it, they are now making a loss on them to sell them. If they don't O2 send them back.

That link posted above tells it all.
 
I'm fucking furious. After the hundred quid I shelled out in NOVEMBER, THE PRE IS NOW FREE ON ALL TARIFFS.
Not sure why you should be furious. It's a great phone with the best mobile OS and just about all phones end up free/much cheaper after launch.
 
The parallels between Palm's plight and Commodore Amiga are too close for comfort.

Can you expand on that thought a bit?

As far as I can tell most platforms are doomed to obscurity in the end, and a large and loyal fanbase usually doesnt stand the test of time unless the product remains compelling. So I suppose its not hard to compare Palm and Amiga because its the usual story that could also be applied to many others. Exceptions include Microsoft, who have made windows last much longer without such love, by sheer volume of users and apps, with a dominant share thats not going to happen very often. Apple were exceedingly lucky to get a second go at greatness after many years of looking like they were going to be the usual story of a slow painful fall from grace.

I dont sense that webOS has anything like the love that AmigaOS had back in the day. Indeed Im amused to see that the more recent legal twists in the AmigaOS story appear to have been sorted and that development on that OS continues. Clearly there are things quite a lot of people really like about webOS, and people who really wanted it to succeed, but due to past failings Palm probably only had one chance to get this right and they didnt do enough right to deliver a good enough experience to people. Expressing a desire to go back to webOS if they improve their UK operation or the hardware or whatever is not enough. And for all the hope that was expressed when the Pre was announced, and all the positive reviews and good things about the OS, I think an underlying sense that Palm may already have had its day was present even before the product came out, and this perception made it even harder to succeed.

From a developers point of view the lack of buzz & sales obviously harmed things from the start, there were some delays in getting the dev tools out, and they made the same mistake as Apple first made by only offering javascript as the language to use. Like Apple did when it allowed native apps, they are rectifying that problem but unlike Apple it may be too late.

Thinking about it the iphone really didnt have too many spectacular apps for quite some time after it first came out (not quite so noticable in UK due to later launch), Apple were lucky that at the time that it was not just 'all about the apps'. I would assume that apps are far more important now which makes it harder for everyone that follows Apple, although I think the extent to which app availability matters may be overstated at the moment - most of the iphone competitors have fallen down in some way with the hardware, core os functionality, marketing or price. If they got those things right from the get go then app/developer issues wouldnt have mattered so much or would have been overcome due to overall success and buzz, the momentum.

Im not sure we will learn much more about the state of things from watching Palm this year. Im more interested in how the steady rise of Android progresses, and how Windows Phone 7 fares.
 
I dont sense that webOS has anything like the love that AmigaOS had back in the day.
In America, Palm is still a very big name, and even now you'll see a lot of Treos and Centros being used.

In the UK, Palm have never enjoyed anywhere near the same kind of popularity.
 
In America, Palm is still a very big name, and even now you'll see a lot of Treos and Centros being used.

In the UK, Palm have never enjoyed anywhere near the same kind of popularity.

At the moment the Americans are not too crazy about Palm either. The word viable is being thrown around.
 
See above, I don't think there is anyone that would do it to keep them afloat.

A private equity firm + patent troll might do it for the patents, risky that though. You'd be taking on the big ones and might lose.

Not sure a PE firm could afford it right now no matter who the jumped into bed with. Palm obv think they have a value, rightly, due to their patents and WebOS. There is an intrinsic value there but they might be forced to sell cheap just to stay afloat.

The issue for any investor is how do they get their money back? And when? Most PE firms want payback in 3 years as their exit strategy. Can't see that happening with Palm...lets say $300m (if it sells at $300m!) profit in 3 years for a firm currently losing $20m a quarter? Doesn't take a genius to figure out that getting funding for that sort of buy out in the current market would redefine "tricky". Where are the profits going to come from exactly?

Now another firm, maybe HTC could grab it and the potential 'loss' would be negligible and written off as an R&D expense. But would HTC really abandon the route it's taken to switch to WebOS?

Sadly unless Palm itself can turn things around I sense it may well die and then a mad scamble will begin for the patents.
 
Their main backers, Elevation Partners, have announced that they remain firmly behind the company.

But Elevation, which bought a 25 percent stake in Palm for $325 mln in 2007, said the smartphone maker still has "enormous opportunity" and backed its management led by Chief Executive and Chairman Jon Rubinstein, a former member of Elevation who is also famous for developing Apple's iPod.

"Jon and his team have built the best mobile operating system available today and they are now working through short-term execution challenges with Elevation's complete support," Elevation said through a spokesman.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idCAN1916520720100319?rpc=44
 
Well, after putting their money where their mouth is, they are not going to say that its dead are they, they stand to lose a lot of money if they said anything else.

'Short term execution challenges' you have to love them for that! That needs to get written on Palm's headstone.

Unless people start buying the phone over the iPhone or Blackberries , Palm is dead. I can't see what Palm can do to make people do that. I'm not gonna jump from a solid ship to one that's half sunk.
 
Palm is the new Psion. Too small to compete now. And unfortunately, Psion at least could morph into Symbian at a more amenable time. Now it's vs Apple, WM and Android, the latter two offering similar options to handset manufacturers.
 
Well owning 25% of Palm of fucking course they are going to say that. Each time the share price drops these guys are losing money. Considering they have already lost half of their investment.
You're quite wrong and miles out with your figures.

While Palm's share price has plunged 72 percent since the first deal in June 2007, the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals.

Palm's filings show that Elevation has invested a total of $460 million in the company, an investment that is worth $432 million today based on Friday's close of $4.00.
 
You're quite wrong and miles out with your figures.

The previous quote you had stated 325 million for 25%, with a market cap of 650 million (ish). Its close to half of their investment.

Your further quote then says "the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals." Which essentially means that Palm is hurting even more to keep these guys happy. The fact they had these "terms" shows quite a lack of confidence.

As sunray quoted "Short term execution challenges" <- that sets alarms ringing.
 
The previous quote you had stated 325 million for 25%, with a market cap of 650 million (ish). Its close to half of their investment.

Your further quote then says "the value of Elevation's investment has been maintained by the terms of the original deals." Which essentially means that Palm is hurting even more to keep these guys happy. The fact they had these "terms" shows quite a lack of confidence.

As sunray quoted "Short term execution challenges" <- that sets alarms ringing.
You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.
 
You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.

Its not spin its what the market says. I'll rephrase then.

The price of the stocks they have purchased are worth 50% of their original value. However they are not stupid and had some heavy duty terms and conditions in the purchase agreement to guard them if Palm doesnt get its shit together.

These terms have kicked in.
 
You can spin it all you like, but your orginal claim that "they have already lost half of their investment," remains as wrong as Billy Wrong on All Wrong's Day.

True but they paid $325m for a quarter of the firm. Hell will freeze over before anyone even thinks about buying Palm for $1.3billion, a firm that by it's own admission is losing $20m per financial quarter.

A lot rests on the 2010 performance, if they can arrest the decline that will be about as good as it will get.

Share price isn't a true reflection of the value of the firm - see Lehman Bros as an example
 
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