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No Vatican - London for a Secular Europe

In what way is this a sectarian thread?

Yeah, I'm surprised by the assumptions made here myself.

It's about a SECULAR Europe, not anti- catholic, christain, muslim anything - we dojn't want ANY of them to have undue influence. This one happens to be about the vatican.
I'm also involved in campaigns against Sharia law in this country.
 
ajdown said:
So you don't think it's any coincidence how the breakdown in civilised society here in the US and around the world can be traced back to about the same time that the leftie do-gooders started trying to change things and remove the positive Christian influence from schools - and that the mess we're now in is a direct result of those children growing up and ending up in positions of power without any positive anchor-point to base things on.

I ask you this question then - why is it wrong for a religious group to 'exert influence' over social policy, yet it's perfectly fine for secular/humanist/whatever groups to do so?

Breakdown in civilised society my arse. What years are you using to indicate when the breakdown in US society began to occur btw? You are aware that there's been a separation of church and state there since the constitution. Your 'question' seems to be based on halfbaked inaccuracies and bullshit.

Has any ' secular/humanist/whatever' group got an opt out from equality legislation then? There's a difference between influence and setting out to be above the laws of the land.
 
Yeah, I'm surprised by the assumptions made here myself.

It's about a SECULAR Europe, not anti- catholic, christain, muslim anything - we dojn't want ANY of them to have undue influence. This one happens to be about the vatican.
I'm also involved in campaigns against Sharia law in this country.

EDL?:p
 
Man emancipates himself politically from religion by banishing it from the sphere of public law to that of private law.

Religion is no longer the spirit of the state, in which man behaves – although in a limited way, in a particular form, and in a particular sphere – as a species-being, in community with other men.
Religion has become the spirit of civil society, of the sphere of egoism, of bellum omnium contra omnes. It is no longer the essence of community, but the essence of difference. It has become the expression of man’s separation from his community, from himself and from other men – as it was originally.

It is only the abstract avowal of specific perversity, private whimsy, and arbitrariness.
The endless fragmentation of religion in North America, for example, gives it even externally the form of a purely individual affair. It has been thrust among the multitude of private interests and ejected from the community as such.
But one should be under no illusion about the limits of political emancipation.

The division of the human being into a public man and a private man, the displacement of religion from the state into civil society, this is not a stage of political emancipation but its completion; this emancipation, therefore, neither abolished the real religiousness of man, nor strives to do so.

The decomposition of man into Jew and citizen, Protestant and citizen, religious man and citizen, is neither a deception directed against citizenhood, nor is it a circumvention of political emancipation, it is political emancipation itself, the political method of emancipating oneself from religion.

Of course, in periods when the political state as such is born violently out of civil society, when political liberation is the form in which men strive to achieve their liberation, the state can and must go as far as the abolition of religion, the destruction of religion.
But it can do so only in the same way that it proceeds to the abolition of private property, to the maximum, to confiscation, to progressive taxation, just as it goes as far as the abolition of life, the guillotine.

At times of special self-confidence, political life seeks to suppress its prerequisite, civil society and the elements composing this society, and to constitute itself as the real species-life of man, devoid of contradictions. But, it can achieve this only by coming into violent contradiction with its own conditions of life, only by declaring the revolution to be permanent, and, therefore, the political drama necessarily ends with the re-establishment of religion, private property, and all elements of civil society, just as war ends with peace.

Indeed, the perfect Christian state is not the so-called Christian state – which acknowledges Christianity as its basis, as the state religion, and, therefore, adopts an exclusive attitude towards other religions.

On the contrary, the perfect Christian state is the atheistic state, the democratic state, the state which relegates religion to a place among the other elements of civil society.

The state which is still theological, which still officially professes Christianity as its creed, which still does not dare to proclaim itself as a state, has, in its reality as a state, not yet succeeded in expressing the human basis – of which Christianity is the high-flown expression – in a secular, human form.

The so-called Christian state is simply nothing more than a non-state, since it is not Christianity as a religion, but only the human background of the Christian religion, which can find its expression in actual human creations.

The so-called Christian state is the Christian negation of the state, but by no means the political realization of Christianity.
The state which still professes Christianity in the form of religion, does not yet profess it in the form appropriate to the state, for it still has a religious attitude towards religion – that is to say, it is not the true implementation of the human basis of religion, because it still relies on the unreal, imaginary form of this human core.

The so-called Christian state is the imperfect state, and the Christian religion is regarded by it as the supplementation and sanctification of its imperfection. For the Christian state, therefore, religion necessarily becomes a means; hence, it is a hypocritical state.

It makes a great difference whether the complete state, because of the defect inherent in the general nature of the state, counts religion among its presuppositions, or whether the incomplete state, because of the defect inherent in its particular existence as a defective state, declares that religion is its basis.

In the latter case, religion becomes imperfect politics.
In the former case, the imperfection even of consummate politics becomes evident in religion.

The so-called Christian state needs the Christian religion in order to complete itself as a state. The democratic state, the real state, does not need religion for its political completion.
On the contrary, it can disregard religion because in it the human basis of religion is realized in a secular manner.

The so-called Christian state, on the other hand, has a political attitude to religion and a religious attitude to politics. By degrading the forms of the state to mere semblance, it equally degrades religion to mere semblance.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
 
You know, sometimes I think to myself that AJ isn't that bad after all.

Then threads like this remind me that he must regularly need to wipe off the faecal matter dripping out of his ears.
 
I ask you this question then - why is it wrong for a religious group to 'exert influence' over social policy, yet it's perfectly fine for secular/humanist/whatever groups to do so?
Well given that the only "influence" secular groups (whose members are not necessarily atheists) attempt to exert is trying to stop religious groups from interfering in everybody else's lives, I'd say there's a fairly clear difference.
 
I ask you this question then - why is it wrong for a religious group to 'exert influence' over social policy, yet it's perfectly fine for secular/humanist/whatever groups to do so?

Your one of those people its hard to tell if you are trolling or not. I don't know whether to bother :confused:
 
Well given that the only "influence" secular groups (whose members are not necessarily atheists) attempt to exert is trying to stop religious groups from interfering in everybody else's lives, I'd say there's a fairly clear difference.

I would have said exactly this if I could be bothered. Are religious arguments always as weak as AJs?
 
Listen pal, nobody on U75 wants a secular Europe. Sure they hate the Pope (when they're not fantasising about being an IRA terrorist) and all things Christian, but these days the left have given up their "opiate of the masses" beliefs in favour of promoting backwards Islamic fundamentalism so the last thing they're gonna support is less religion in Europe
 
So you don't think it's any coincidence how the breakdown in civilised society here in the US and around the world can be traced back to about the same time that the leftie do-gooders started trying to change things and remove the positive Christian influence from schools - and that the mess we're now in is a direct result of those children growing up and ending up in positions of power without any positive anchor-point to base things on.

I ask you this question then - why is it wrong for a religious group to 'exert influence' over social policy, yet it's perfectly fine for secular/humanist/whatever groups to do so?

In what way has civilised society broken down?

Isn't there still a lot of Christian influence (and increasing influence from other God bothering communities) in British education and society in grneral?
 
In what way has civilised society broken down?

Isn't there still a lot of Christian influence (and increasing influence from other God bothering communities) in British education and society in grneral?

There's been a deliberate attempt to religify the local state and related bodies and institutions for the last few decades - all part of official multi-culturalism form above, and now extending far beyond the traditional remit of religious representation- but very little of it done on the basis of an increased rank-and-file religiousity There is a large gap between the states attempted to widen its uses of religion and the social reality of many areas - and its this gap that highlights that this is a political tactic.
 
aside from faith schools, how so?
Well for a start, a lot of services that were once provided directly by local councils, such as social care and housing, are often provided by third sector companies these days, who are often ran by Godbotherers of some sort.

For instance Forum Housing, a company that runs much of the social housing for young people in my area, is a Christian organisation.
 
Is this a "deliberate" policy of religification of service provision? Or just happening by default as local government is stripped back?
 
Is this a "deliberate" policy of religification of service provision? Or just happening by default as local government is stripped back?
I think there's a bit of both there. The state can farm out it's fuction as provider of social services to the third sector while persuing a deliberate policy of trying to break down provision between artificial religious (and sometimes non-religious) "communities".
 
No I wont so there :p

wank into a sock you peasent, I'll use the knickers i stole from the bird in the bedsit downstairs :oops:

They should be good for a few wanks, you want to see the size of 'er :eek:

Are you joking or are you always this transparent an idiotic.

When did you last get a smack in the face?
 
16th - 18th September for the visit, according to BBC news.

Guess I'll have to make my own protest as I'm certainly not for a "secular Europe" in any shape or form.
 
get a job and have a bath for fucks sake, only lonely students and alcoholic anarchists will attend, its valentines day for fuck sake!

Get in my way when I'm going home for some lovin' and I'll run you over with my 4x4

I'm going to organise a demo to keep scruffy irks from demonstrating about things only 1 man and his dogs gives a shit about and pay your own fucking policing cost!

Was you born a prick or did it take years of practice to get to this prick skill level?
 
16th - 18th September for the visit, according to BBC news.

Guess I'll have to make my own protest as I'm certainly not for a "secular Europe" in any shape or form.

luckily, plummetting church attndance figures in the UK especially, but accross Pan EU, tell us that a 'secular europe' is exactly what the vast majority here want , and will get eventually ,

You stick to defending the kiddy fiddlers and evangeloon$$$ in the US eh . good luck with it all.
 
This thread should be scraped.
It is discriminatory towards Catholics, many of whom have more progrssive views than some on these boards!
 
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