Militant - urbans verdict

[The39thStep]

He gets a mention in the afterword to the new edition of Crick’s book.

View attachment 221126

Think he was in TSSA the white collar transport union. Politically very sectarian but football wise good for a chat . The expulsion from the Labour Party had understandably a real crushing blow on a lot of their cadre.

 

[Pickman's model]

The whole thing about the Poll tax though its sheer strength of working class support who weren't interested in the history of differences between Trot groups and just wanted the Poll tax abolished.

yeh i wasn't that interested in the differences between trot groups until it became plain that it didn't matter what i thought, militant and therefore the abaptf were very interested in them.

 

[Sprocket.]

The old mantra that existed inside the closed shops of ‘you are either with us or against us’ dissipated.
Though these days if you are with us you are against us, seems to fit on occasion.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I had a chat with a young bloke in the Socialist Party in Plymouth a few years ago, half an hour or more. I discovered that Trotsky could do no wrong, that Trotsky was always right, that it was all Stalin’s fault and that anyone on the left in Russia who disagreed with Trotsky had been bought by Tsarist gold. Are they all like that?

 

[The39thStep]

I had a chat with a young bloke in the Socialist Party in Plymouth a few years ago, half an hour or more. I discovered that Trotsky could do no wrong, that Trotsky was always right, that it was all Stalin’s fault and that anyone on the left in Russia who disagreed with Trotsky had been bought by Tsarist gold. Are they all like that?

Dunno, however I find it hard to believe that its Trotsky that initially attracts or attracted people to either the SP or Miltant to be honest . In my view its more a question of being attracted to like minded people who want to do something and see the w/class as a force for change. I'm equally put off by those who quote Kropotkin or Makhno tbh. I'm sure there are lessons to be learnt from a whole number of icons however to get stuck in endless timeless debates about them is one of the worst and inevitable features of the cobweb left.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Dunno, however I find it hard to believe that its Trotsky that initially attracts or attracted people to either the SP or Miltant to be honest . In my view its more a question of being attracted to like minded people who want to do something and see the w/class as a force for change. I'm equally put off by those who quote Kropotkin or Makhno tbh. I'm sure there are lessons to be learnt from a whole number of icons however to get stuck in endless timeless debates about them is one of the worst and inevitable features of the cobweb left.

I agree. I have found that some Marxist groups tend to be more inclined towards hero-worship than others. I’ve known worshippers of Stalin in the Communist Party, Trotsky devotees in the WRP - all good people with their hearts in the right place, but with this one serious defect in their understanding of humanity, that nobody’s perfect. On the other hand l’ve never encountered anarchists who have been uncritical of anarchist heroes, whether Kropotkin or Makhno, normally quite the reverse. I might just have been lucky.
I reckon that the fixation which many have (or had) on the Bolshevik Revolution is partly to blame. If only so-and-so, usually Trotsky, had had his way it would all have been different. Hmmmn. Different certainly, better who knows?
(By the by, anarchists have their own fixations, usually the Spanish Civil War).

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I had a chat with a young bloke in the Socialist Party in Plymouth a few years ago, half an hour or more. I discovered that Trotsky could do no wrong, that Trotsky was always right, that it was all Stalin’s fault and that anyone on the left in Russia who disagreed with Trotsky had been bought by Tsarist gold. Are they all like that?

I don’t know what it’s like now but when I was a ‘supporter’ there was a regular reading group. On one hand it was one of the best things that ever happened to me because it taught me how to read books and think about what they said. I definitely hadn’t been taught critical analysis at school.

On the other, there was too much emphasis through it on the primacy of party building and why the Tendency tacticians were right and everyone else was wrong. At the time I was more interested in getting stuck in - on the poll tax, on the streets against the fascists, in the workplace and getting more people involved. Most of the recruits were like me to be fair, but some definitely preferred a 15 hour debate with workers power about Afghanistan or the Ambulance workers strike and why their interpretation of what Trotsky wrote was better.

 

[The39thStep]

I don’t know what it’s like now but when I was a ‘supporter’ there was a regular reading group. On one hand it was one of the best things that ever happened to me because it taught me how to read books and think about what they said. I definitely hadn’t been taught critical analysis at school.

On the other, there was too much emphasis through it on the primacy of party building and why the Tendency tacticians were right and everyone else was wrong. At the time I was more interested in getting stuck in - on the poll tax, on the streets against the fascists, in the workplace and getting more people involved. Most of the recruits were like me to be fair, but some definitely preferred a 15 hour debate with workers power about Afghanistan or the Ambulance workers strike and why their interpretation of what Trotsky wrote was better.

'what is the real revolutionary tradition?' meetings were always good for an absolute lambasting of other left groups and a reminder that 1917 was the model.

 

[Sprocket.]

This was the problem. Relatively few of the attendees were interested in the ins and outs, the details. They wanted action and results.
Though I agree with Smokeandsteam in regards to learning critical thinking. This has been a useful skill we never touched at school.

 

[The39thStep]

I agree. I have found that some Marxist groups tend to be more inclined towards hero-worship than others. I’ve known worshippers of Stalin in the Communist Party, Trotsky devotees in the WRP - all good people with their hearts in the right place, but with this one serious defect in their understanding of humanity, that nobody’s perfect. On the other hand l’ve never encountered anarchists who have been uncritical of anarchist heroes, whether Kropotkin or Makhno, normally quite the reverse. I might just have been lucky.
I reckon that the fixation which many have (or had) on the Bolshevik Revolution is partly to blame. If only so-and-so, usually Trotsky, had had his way it would all have been different. Hmmmn. Different certainly, better who knows?
(By the by, anarchists have their own fixations, usually the Spanish Civil War).

I remember a Poll tax meeting in Withington when a somewhat overenthusiastic anarchist managed to cram both Spain in 1936 and the Zapatistas ina rambling contribution much to the bewilderment of an audience of council tenants.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I remember a Poll tax meeting in Withington when a somewhat overenthusiastic anarchist managed to cram both Spain in 1936 and the Zapatistas ina rambling contribution much to the bewilderment of an audience of council tenants.

That seems a bit odd. The Zapatistas only became known to the wider world in 1994 when they launched their rebellion. The Poll Tax was history by then, replaced by Council Tax in 1993.

 

[Idris2002]

That seems a bit odd. The Zapatistas only became known to the wider world in 1994 when they launched their rebellion. The Poll Tax was history by then, replaced by Council Tax in 1993.

Maybe Step's anarkid was referencing the original Zapata?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Maybe Step's anarkid was referencing the original Zapata?

True. He is still alive, or so I’ve heard.

 

[The39thStep]

That seems a bit odd. The Zapatistas only became known to the wider world in 1994 when they launched their rebellion. The Poll Tax was history by then, replaced by Council Tax in 1993.

Might not have been a Poll Tax meeting then could have been an anti cuts meeting.

 

[Idris2002]

True. He is still alive, or so I’ve heard.

Who? Step or Zapata?

 

[Pickman's model]

That seems a bit odd. The Zapatistas only became known to the wider world in 1994 when they launched their rebellion. The Poll Tax was history by then, replaced by Council Tax in 1993.

except that it wasn't, the court cases continued: as can be seen by the magistrates association issuing guidelines for poll tax committal in march 1995. and the debts continued to be pursued for some years subsequently.

having an anti-poll tax meeting after 1/1/94 quite possible

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

except that it wasn't, the final year the poll tax was levied was 1993/94, the first year of council tax was 1994/95. but court cases continued: as can be seen by the magistrates association issuing guidelines for poll tax committal in march 1995. and the debts continued to be pursued for some years subsequently.

having an anti-poll tax meeting after 1/1/94 quite possible

That may be true in your reality, but in mine Zapata still lives, remember.

 

[Pickman's model]

That may be true in your reality, but in mine Zapata still lives, remember.

¡alfaro vive, carajo!

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Militant a mixed bag: rather narrow view of socialism but far more w/class than other Left groups. And it was a Militant front (YRE) who finally drove fascist paper sellers away from Brick Lane in early 90s. Hatton was certainly a divisive figure, but for me personally the Kinnock rant against him and Militant at Party Conference was when I cast aside any residual sentimental (as opposed to tactical) attachment to Labour. And they certainly came under the cosh from state infiltration.