DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Would you touch either's cloth?
Militant - urbans verdict
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Just wondering if Class War's Andy Murphy is still about? He ran rings around Guy Mitchellson.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
**oops**
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Err, a faux pas on my part?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, i had a meltdown and said he stood for the SP last year - i though you asked about nally for some reason. So i edited it to the above.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
kinnock was vile in many ways, especially over the miners strike and he was slammed by the media over his welsh accent and ginger baldiness as much as his shite politics.
hatton was the public face of 'the Millies' and he was a twat. he did a solo act at one point that was probably as bad as alistair campbells.
the SPEW acronym is the most stoopid thing ive ever seen regarding political grupuscules, almost as bad as the Party Of Demcoratic Opposition (PEDO) which I have just made up.
hatton was the public face of 'the Millies' and he was a twat. he did a solo act at one point that was probably as bad as alistair campbells.
the SPEW acronym is the most stoopid thing ive ever seen regarding political grupuscules, almost as bad as the Party Of Demcoratic Opposition (PEDO) which I have just made up.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
pointless post ....
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DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Excuse me?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
in relation to the horrible acronym SPEW, i made up some stuff and am not sure why.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Do you still feel that last one is acceptable?
When I was active in Labour in the very late 80s/very early 90s, in Liberal scumbag Simon Hughes's constituency, it wasn't at all long after Militant had taken effective control of the CLP -- particularly in the period before the 1987 GE. The 1987 LP candidate was massively Militant John Bryan, who managed a 5% swing in his favour (not enough to depose Hughes at that stage).
After he and some of his keen paper selling friends had gone, some of the (then) almost-as-left CLP were very glad they had gone, AFAICR.
I moved back to London at the very end of 1987 and on rejoining the LP quite promptly, it quickly became obvious that others in my branch, and round the borough more widely, had no time for Militant, who still held some influence (I believe full on Kinnockite purges/expulsions of key Militant types happened a bit later (?) -- can't remember exact timing),
From what I could imperfectly work out, Militant people locally seemed pretty good, whether intentionally or not, at hugely alienating other lefties -- general divisiveness came naturally to them.
Some of the rumours about their control of money for a time in the CLP, and their practices to do with 'obtaining' beer from the CLP club/HQ in Salter Road didn't sound great, but I have to say I was dependent on pub gossip and disgruntled local Labour talk at that time.
After he and some of his keen paper selling friends had gone, some of the (then) almost-as-left CLP were very glad they had gone, AFAICR.
I moved back to London at the very end of 1987 and on rejoining the LP quite promptly, it quickly became obvious that others in my branch, and round the borough more widely, had no time for Militant, who still held some influence (I believe full on Kinnockite purges/expulsions of key Militant types happened a bit later (?) -- can't remember exact timing),
From what I could imperfectly work out, Militant people locally seemed pretty good, whether intentionally or not, at hugely alienating other lefties -- general divisiveness came naturally to them.
Some of the rumours about their control of money for a time in the CLP, and their practices to do with 'obtaining' beer from the CLP club/HQ in Salter Road didn't sound great, but I have to say I was dependent on pub gossip and disgruntled local Labour talk at that time.
Ungrateful
Tired and Weary
A friend of mine had joined Militant in Northern Ireland in the mid-1980s, but had soon become disenchanted with them. This did not stop them from tracking her down to her digs in Manchester, and attempting with growing vehemence to haranguing her into rejoining the Tendency. When she continued to refuse, she was denounced on her own door step as a 'class traitor'. Although repulsed by their arrogance and bullying intransigence, I was slightly impressed by Militant's organizational efficiency and commitment. Its a shame that movements whose (anti-)politics I tend to approve of tend to have the organizational capability and commitment of a box of kittens.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
militant had a 'squaddist' faction called The Away Team who, if anything like RA/AFA would have no doubt steward meetings or marches. there was someone on here who was involved and there was that video about it too but not sure where. this was the do:
ska invita
back on the other side
How bad is the Michael Crick book on this?
Any other titles to recommend on Militant?
Any other titles to recommend on Militant?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I read it at the time, but even though I was in the LP and Militant were trying to recruit me I wasn't savvy enough then to have a proper view of the book. On militant more generally though, I think they get something approaching a free ride on the grounds of the cunts opposing them within Labour. My experience was that life within militant was every bit as cult like as the swp, even if it was more working class and less absurd. The local groups I saw most (north Manchester) not only had the usual caucusing and 'lines' but all the other psychological tricks of leadership. I suspect that wasn't the case in all groups.
The other thing of course was that Militant were obviously an organised group with their own policy and organisation - the thing they were accused of by Kinnock etc. As a lefty you found yourself engaged in a degree of dishonesty when defending them against expulsion.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The first and third stories, are they related?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Sprocket is largely correct here in respect of their influence in the unions. Although as I remember it they were more influential in some smaller unions (CPSA for example) than the bigger ones. I was active in the TGWU where we were massively outnumbered by the CP, soft lefts and unaligned ambitious types in the broad left. To be fair my experience was in the 90’s so it could have been different a decade earlier but I don’t think so.
But, I’d argue that the height of Militant’s influence was during the anti-poll tax campaign. It remains the only time in my life where it was possible to engage in genuine mass working class community politics. There was a significant campaign in Birmingham and the Black Country (and across much of Britain, although my involvement was strictly limited to the West Midlands) which involved supporting the ‘Can’t Pay, Won’t Pay’ mass disobedience over the poll tax. Militant was at the forefront of defending people at court hearings, organising massive mobilisations to drive bailiffs off estates and convening hundreds of meetings on estates to which thousands of people came. I joined the Militant as a result. At the time it was an overwhelmingly working class membership that took pride in the fact and regularly (obsessively) counterposed its class character to the rest of the left. Once the campaign ended it all went a bit shit, but that’s another story.
There is definitely an urgent need for a book on the Militant that covers these events properly. I don’t agree with Sprocket that it’s impossible to ever replicate their success but it’s instructive to compare the class base of their APTU movement and that of Corbyn‘s Labour. As such you could say that the anti poll tax campaign was the last working class mass movement to date.
As for the history, Crick’s book is a piss poor hatchet job based on press cuttings and what his Labour Party mates told him to write. Taaffe manages to take really a interesting subject to which he had unprecedented access to the key players and produce a dull and largely hagiographic mess. There was this:Harry Taylor - Department of Politics - University of Liverpool but I’ve not got round to reading it yet.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I remember Sham Singh out of DAM telling me about the way militant operated in the abaptf, where people from other orgs on the governing body were edged out (and iirc there were only a couple of non-militant in there to start off with). In London, certainly in Haringey and Camden, militant were conspicuous by their absence. Maybe things were different in your neck of the woods. But what I heard from activists all over the country was that militant used their position in the abaptf to withhold information etc from non-militant groups. I don't think militant covered themselves in glory in that campaign.
To be fair the beginning of 2016 when I posted that was a in different political landscape to the beyond satire world we now inhabit.
New ideas and ways forward are always welcome but the movement that should be representing the workers and those in dire need of support seems to spend far too much time dwelling on minor differences than giving a positive message and outlook.
The effects of the post-industrial economy and the selling off of council housing and public utilities did irreparable damage by creating an economy and lifestyles built on acquisitions and sadly greed.
A different planet to the one which I began my working life in.
New ideas and ways forward are always welcome but the movement that should be representing the workers and those in dire need of support seems to spend far too much time dwelling on minor differences than giving a positive message and outlook.
The effects of the post-industrial economy and the selling off of council housing and public utilities did irreparable damage by creating an economy and lifestyles built on acquisitions and sadly greed.
A different planet to the one which I began my working life in.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yes. My experience was as a teenager getting involved in politics for the first time. As far as I could tell it was about getting stuck in and I wouldn’t even have known who DAM were. It’s true that the SWP and other ‘middle class wankers’ were routinely excluded and pushed out.
I think that’s one of the reasons a properly researched and balanced account is sorely needed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tbh there are imo 2 sorts of groups, those in it for themselves, to recruit more members etc, and those prepared to work with others to further the shared cause. I've worked with trots (socialist organise, swp, hell even the rcg) and Stalinists (ncp) as well as with people of other views. Either you're prepared to work with other people with good faith at this stage or you're working against them.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Aye, I’ve only just noticed the thread is a bumped one.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The swp of course ordered their activists to withdraw and work on other things
The 1st and 3rd articles are identical. I uploaded the same article twice by mistake.
(The second article is also the same, but on that one the photograph of Tony Mul et al. is clearer, hence why I uploaded it.)
Spot on about about CPSA.
It was long before my time, but at one point they won the GS position in that union. The right wing quickly threw the rule book out of the window and overturned the result.
This is my experience now. Outnumbered and so on, but my SP branch contains some great trade unionists. They’re experienced, generous with their time, and patient in helping younger, less experienced comrades (like myself) to organise within the unions.
I was a baby when all that kicked off. Wish I would have been born 20 years earlier.
The SP still has an overwhelmingly working class membership, especially in my branch (Liverpool). This fact, along with its trade union work, is why I’m a member.
PT and Tony’s book (on the Liverpool struggle) is the best imo.
As for Crick’s book, I didn’t mind it too much. That fact that he is such a hatchet-job merchant actually helps somewhat. When he praises or defends Militant in some way, it counts for more as he’s such a hostile source (examples below).
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
In Manchester Militant were in a minority in the leadership amongst the Poll Tax groups across the borough despite the national conference taking place there. ABAPFT didnt have much resonance as the focus was on pressurising the left wing Labour Council. Manchester was one of the last left wing councils and probably the softest tbh. We had a 600 strong Council workers against the Poll tax group.The Councils Housing section voted not to collect the poll tax but we couldn't get a majority in the Finance section which the branch leadership controlled. I knew Militant members quite well in Manchester especially those in the trade unions and despite the occasional row and manoeuvring most rank and file SWP and Militant worked quite well together tbh with a small group of unaligned left Labour Councillors . Anarchists were involved but tbh they were very small in Manchester , they didn't even lead the Hulme group. The whole thing about the Poll tax though its sheer strength of working class support who weren't interested in the history of differences between Trot groups and just wanted the Poll tax abolished.
Bit of a detour here however Internally in the SWP we had a heavy intervention in our district from the national leadership who thought we didn't differentiate ourselves sufficiently from left labour and Militant whilst we on the ground weren't arsed about that and had helped build what we had thought was a good community based campaign. I think this was the time when Bamberry stepped in and announced from the floor , after I had spoken about the strengths of the campaign, that what was required in the Party was not alliances with left labour but a return to revolutionary socialism. This required he said vigorous internal debate so that we distinguished ourselves as being revolutionary socialists and this meant that 'there would be blood on the carpets'. Having been late to the Miners strike due to the 'necessary' routine of public meetings , regular paper sales etc , we were now leaving early the Poll Tax to revert to the same regime but with the added attraction of flushing out the non revolutionaries with internal debate. I suppose for me after being a member for decades that this was one of the final nails in the coffin.
Footnote: one of the most active Militant members in the Poll tax ( he went to jail along with an SWP member the same day) later set up the breakaway FC United.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I think that’s exactly right. It’s how it felt to me. I’m not discounting the sectarian manoeuvres. I was ignorant of them at the time but they wouldn’t have been relevant anyway for precisely this reason
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