Militant - urbans verdict

[ska invita]

What do urbanites makes of Militant? Was before my time, and I remember reading a pretty convincing hatchet job against the tendency... broadly as a crude politics. Would be curious to read thoughts of those who were around at the time...

ETA: and the legacy...

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do urbanites makes of Militant? Was before my time, and I remember reading a pretty convincing hatchet job against the tendency... broadly as a crude politics. Would be curious to read thoughts of those who were around at the time...

ETA: and the legacy...

Geri was a member IIRC.
For me, as a Labour supporter at the time, the attack on/expulsion of Militant was an exercise in stupidity. Labour evicted a bunch of committed socialist activists because they suspected that they might not be as enamoured of parliamentary democracy as the PLP and NEC were/are. Yes, Militant were self-confessed "entryists", but they were working within the machine, not against it. The expulsion just showed how narrow a church the supposed "broad church" of Labour had become by the mid-'80s, and how hungry for power the likes of Pillock were. Socialism should be the goal of Labour, not the expulsion of socialists and the suppression of socialism.

 

[marty21]

At the time I was a bit WTF is Kinnock doing , Labour seemed terrified of all the 'Loony Left' narrative from the tabloids. We seem to have come full circle now - the blarites are now the loons

 

[Pickman's model]

At the time I was a bit WTF is Kinnock doing , Labour seemed terrified of all the 'Loony Left' narrative from the tabloids. We seem to have come full circle now - the blarites are now the loons

the blairites have always been the loons

 

[Sprocket.]

Kinnock responded to a concentrated attack on the left of the Labour party from the media,
The elites were growing fearful of the way that the Labour party was being used to promote ideas and individuals, who saw that socialist ideas were being abandoned by those who should have been standing up for all workers.
those who left to form the SDP were merely tools used to form Kinnock into a weapon intent on removing Militant and it's influence from the Labour movement, especially within the trade union movement and the local authorities of Liverpool, London Glasgow and Brighton.
This was the point where I left the idea that the Labour party would ever make any real changes and settled on fighting the battles that could be won in the workplace, in the individual attacks on workers.
The attacks by Kinnock opened the doors for the advancement of the tories now representing Labour,
But as I said earlier, he was just the useful idiot that our lords and masters forged into working against all workers.

Militant achieved some great success in it's time and politicised and educated many in the unions and local governments that there was a possible direction for a better way. But the backstabbers intended on cementing their place at their master's table and if they ever did have any principles, they left them at home those days when Militant members were expelled.

There is no way that such a movement will ever be allowed to gain a foothold in the labour movement again that had the influence militant did,
and I personally find that disheartening

 

[DotCommunist]

do you rates Taafe's book on liverpool under militant as a decent run down Sprocket. ? I've been meaning to pick up a copy for ages

 

[marty21]

Kinnock responded to a concentrated attack on the left of the Labour party from the media,
The elites were growing fearful of the way that the Labour party was being used to promote ideas and individuals, who saw that socialist ideas were being abandoned by those who should have been standing up for all workers.
those who left to form the SDP were merely tools used to form Kinnock into a weapon intent on removing Militant and it's influence from the Labour movement, especially within the trade union movement and the local authorities of Liverpool, London Glasgow and Brighton.
This was the point where I left the idea that the Labour party would ever make any real changes and settled on fighting the battles that could be won in the workplace, in the individual attacks on workers.
The attacks by Kinnock opened the doors for the advancement of the tories now representing Labour,
But as I said earlier, he was just the useful idiot that our lords and masters forged into working against all workers.

Militant achieved some great success in it's time and politicised and educated many in the unions and local governments that there was a possible direction for a better way. But the backstabbers intended on cementing their place at their master's table and if they ever did have any principles, they left them at home those days when Militant members were expelled.

There is no way that such a movement will ever be allowed to gain a foothold in the labour movement again that had the influence militant did,
and I personally find that disheartening

Agree with most of this, but Corbyn might disagree with the last paragraph - I tend to think his influence over change within the Labour party may be diluted by infighting but hopefully he can make some substantial changes.

 

[planetgeli]

The setting of illegal budgets and attempts to build council housing, against the run of play as it were under Thatcherism, provided us with some heady times. Militant contained a lot of good people trying to do good things. Against that I've never been comfortable with what followed, i.e the irony of Hatton the property developing capitalist, not to mention male model. We also had to put up with a lot of wank about 'we're not a Tendency, we're a newspaper' which was a silly nuanced argument that attempted to stop the expulsions.

They had a lot of electoral success on a very left-wing platform though. They were proof that socialism, of a sort, can be popular, even electable. And they played a part in making the early 80's interesting times.

 

[Sprocket.]

do you rates Taafe's book on liverpool under militant as a decent run down Sprocket. ? I've been meaning to pick up a copy for ages

I have not read this book, but did read Taafe's book The rise of militant. Though I remember it is a decent read, where it shows how militant itself was divided over direction between Ted Grant and Taafe.
My reading material could do with a makeover!

 

[Geri]

They had a lot of electoral success on a very left-wing platform though. They were proof that socialism, of a sort, can be popular, even electable. And they played a part in making the early 80's interesting times.

They wouldn't have had that success without piggybacking on Labour though. There is no way they would have been elected if they had stood as independents with that platform.

 

[planetgeli]

They wouldn't have had that success without piggybacking on Labour though. There is no way they would have been elected if they had stood as independents with that platform.

Well, perhaps. But isn't that more a condemnation of the way the parliamentary system is set up for two parties? And Terry Fields was the only Labour MP to win a seat off the Tories in the 1983 election.

Another fun fact from 1983. Dave Nellist was the first person Tony Blair had to share a Westminster office with. Bet that was fun.

 

[ViolentPanda]

At the time I was a bit WTF is Kinnock doing , Labour seemed terrified of all the 'Loony Left' narrative from the tabloids. We seem to have come full circle now - the blarites are now the loons

Kinnock was the start of the "new Labour" disease, neoliberalism wrapped up in a blustering faux hard man package (also favoured by the likes of John Reed). He was more worried about the media, than about ideology and policy. Look where that has led.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Kinnock responded to a concentrated attack on the left of the Labour party from the media,
The elites were growing fearful of the way that the Labour party was being used to promote ideas and individuals, who saw that socialist ideas were being abandoned by those who should have been standing up for all workers.
those who left to form the SDP were merely tools used to form Kinnock into a weapon intent on removing Militant and it's influence from the Labour movement, especially within the trade union movement and the local authorities of Liverpool, London Glasgow and Brighton.
This was the point where I left the idea that the Labour party would ever make any real changes and settled on fighting the battles that could be won in the workplace, in the individual attacks on workers.
The attacks by Kinnock opened the doors for the advancement of the tories now representing Labour,
But as I said earlier, he was just the useful idiot that our lords and masters forged into working against all workers.

Militant achieved some great success in it's time and politicised and educated many in the unions and local governments that there was a possible direction for a better way. But the backstabbers intended on cementing their place at their master's table and if they ever did have any principles, they left them at home those days when Militant members were expelled.

There is no way that such a movement will ever be allowed to gain a foothold in the labour movement again that had the influence militant did, and I personally find that disheartening

There's certainly no way such a left-inclined movement would, as of now, but as you point out, Kinnock's currying of favour from the Establishment had the consequence of letting right-wing entryists into the Labour Party.

 

[A380]

I was 'in it' for just over a year. Politics were a bit simplistic but most members hearts were in the right place and the paper production was very slick. Why I left (apart from the conflict of the 10% of salary subs and my burgeoning relationship with the first common law Ms A320) was the bullying and didactic nature of the middle level regional 'full timers' who in true Trotskiete fashion brooked no dissent either from the party line or from their own little whims. Even then I could see that we were far from 3 to 5 years away from a revolution and - ironically given the Trotskiete nature of the organisation- in the local full time cadre could see why Russia became such a horror show in the 30s. It made me the whinging wet reformist I am today.

In retrospect the tactics were wrong, but we were one of the few groups prepared to fight the Thatcher government. Bit like the miners really but without the suffering and violence.

 

[likesfish]

Not nearly as clever as they thought they were and they lost.

 

[belboid]

do you rates Taafe's book on liverpool under militant as a decent run down Sprocket. ? I've been meaning to pick up a copy for ages

Taafe would turn Roy of the Rovers into a turgid piece of dross even if he was photocopying it. Abysmal writer.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Taafe would turn Roy of the Rovers into a turgid piece of dross even if he was photocopying it. Abysmal writer.

I definitely agree with that. And the constant re-stating of the propagandistic point he's making that makes you think 'well yeah, I got that the first time I'm not a fucking moron.'

Whatever Taffe's qualities may be, writing is not one of them.

 

[SpineyNorman]

They were the only trot group, and probably the only far left group (maybe - probably? - the CP's TU activity when I was a nipper was more significant I dunno) in my lifetime that seemed to have a coherent strategy (albeit one that failed ultimately) and seemed to be getting concrete results. Sprocket may correct me (and reding his posts here he deffo knows more than me about this) but I think the militant council made a real difference in Liverpool for a lot of people. My sources for this have basically been Urban, some of the lads at work when I was a Jacobs and the SP so I'm not exactly an expert.

 

[alsoknownas]

My old man was part of Militant and that was the workplace I'd be taken to as a nipper. I used to bang out imaginary football reports on the typewriters (Palace used to win a lot ), and watch the huge presses roll.

 

[frogwoman]

I was in the SP from 2010 to 2013. Don't have any time for their politics now but they did do some good in the 1980s. However they do do a lot of trading on the past glories of militant in order to make up for their current day status. They are still the best trot group you can join imo though (not that that is saying a great deal).

 

[frogwoman]

Taafe would turn Roy of the Rovers into a turgid piece of dross even if he was photocopying it. Abysmal writer.

He thinks he is a great writer though and most higher ups in the SP agree with him.

By the way ( ) he was perfectly nice on the couple of occassions I met him. Don't have any time for the politics though.

 

[Idris2002]

Flawed in many ways, but they probably left the most positive legacy of all the UK trot organizations.

I wasn't impressed, though, the time I was up the Shankill during some local elections and noticed that the Socialist Party NI posters were using a shade of red that was very nearly orange.

 

[Sprocket.]

SpineyNorman, The Militant era in Liverpool led to some very confusing actions. My knowledge came from members of MT at the time, also at this time the SP were attacking militant through their newspaper the Socialist standard.
I remember and possibly still have somewhere the print version of this article I found in the archives from January 1986. As you can see, the left were busy tearing into each other whenever an opportunity arose.



Leftist Wonderland: Militant in Liverpool | The Socialist Party of Great Britain

 

[SpineyNorman]

SpineyNorman, The Militant era in Liverpool led to some very confusing actions. My knowledge came from members of MT at the time, also at this time the SP were attacking militant through their newspaper the Socialist standard.
I remember and possibly still have somewhere the print version of this article I found in the archives from January 1986. As you can see, the left were busy tearing into each other whenever an opportunity arose.



Leftist Wonderland: Militant in Liverpool | The Socialist Party of Great Britain

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Thanks. Just to be clear, in my post I was referring to the other SP (Militant's successor, SPEW) as a source.

 

[frogwoman]

Thanks. Just to be clear, in my post I was referring to the other SP (Militant's successor, SPEW) as a source.

Taaffe will hate you now

 

[dylanredefined]

The most evil thing ever from what I remember coming from a daily mail reading family. Not exactly sure what they did that made them EVIL!!! except they were worse than the loony left.

 

[articul8]

They seem to have had (and still have in the SP, although it's less immediately obvious perhaps) a very simple equation between collective ownership (administered by some apparently "transitional" State) and socialism, whatever lip service is paid to democratic workers control. [Hence the "Nationalise the top xxx many monopolies!" demand] I suppose it's an achilles heel of orthodox Trotskyism more generally. There's never really any developed theory of what overcoming the value form inherited from capitalism would require so that you don't end up with a collective/state capitalist assuming the function of private capitalists.

SP still talks about "socialism" as though they have a blueprint up their sleeves and it just needs implementing [from the centre?].

[edit] but that isn't to underestimate what they achieved in Liverpool and their role in the poll tax struggles.

 

[chilango]

See from 0:42s to about 1m:01s in this video.

 

[chilango]

"our Federation is going to be conducting an internal inquiry to try and root out the troublemakers"

"...which will go public and if necessary name names"

This stance by Militant on the Poll Tax riot served as an early warning for me about the group (and others like it).

Much later I personally came across a very similar attitude towards "direct action" (i.e.out of Militant/SP control) with it being declared "Mickey Mouse terrorism".

Still later, though, I did work with some very sound SP activists.

Never managed to quite forget those Poll Tax quotes though

 

[DotCommunist]

waddington looks like a less refined version of Gove. Not identical but cut from the same cloth.