Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
They might do. Some people claim there's a link between violent films (and presumably games) and violence in real life.
Lolicon (Lolita Complex)
- Thread starter Kesher
- Start date
- Status
They might do. Some people claim there's a link between violent films (and presumably games) and violence in real life.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
Looks like a fairly even split to me.
Chick Webb
Countryfile and a can
Does it though? Is there any proof of this? Just to be clear, I find manga involving sexual situations involving an adult and child creepy and gross. I particularly find stuff that depicts the young character as being scared really revolting (so it looks like lack of consent being shown freaks me out more than the presumed consent you're talking about), but I don't know if there's any proof that looking at that kind of thing makes a person more likely to want to pursue something similar in real life or that it normalises it.
I'd be willing to be proved wrong though. When I first heard about these laws being proposed a few years ago I thought it was a simple matter of no one is being harmed, so it's ridiculous to talk about banning comics depicting fantasies. Lots of people have creepy fantasies after all, and presumably most of those people don't act on those fantasies in illegal or immoral manners. I don't consider it that simple of a black and white matter anymore. If we had proof that watching this stuff "made" or encouraged paedophiles, I'd be all for banning it of course. I just don't think it should be automatically banned because most of us consider it icky.
One thing is for sure though, if they ever did try to ban that sort of manga, there are already a load of loopholes that are established tropes in manga waiting to be exploited. For one example, the character who looks much, much younger than they are. It's a cliche in manga to have a character look about 13 (or even 10 or 9 or younger) and for the author to say s/he's 18. This game for example, apparently involves only over 18 year old characters. Have a look at the two lads in the foreground. No, I have not (nor would I) play it. I have had an email conversation with the guy who translated it into English though.
Was she posting before we all found out about Jimmy Savile, and the perception that paedophiles aren't rare and are in fact everywhere became commonplace?
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
2010.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Are there any studies about the link between this sort of porn and offending? I am reluctant to Google.
FWIW, I happened to be reading this article by Neil Gaiman yesterday about this very subject. (Someone cited it in defence of Charlie.) Lolicon and even BDs are way out of my territory but I'll throw this in and retire. He's basically saying that just because we find something icky we shouldn't be seeking to ban it. Are people saying more than this? That they have actual evidence for? Leaving aside, obviously, any cases which involve actual abuse. Are we prosecuting for thought crime now?
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Excellent comment.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
My own opinion is censorship should only be invoked in extreme circumstances. I don't really consider obvious drawings - no matter what they're of - extreme circumstances. I'd be surprised if anyone had first been inspired to molest children by watching manga. That said, what happens when fake images get more and more photo realistic?
Ultimately, you can't control what people whack off over. If they can't see a picture of it, they'll probably just think about it. (I'm sure many people have fantasies that others will find distasteful/shocking, but are also able to keep them just in their head or find a way of working them out which stays within the law (e.g. roleplay, S&M with rules).) The state can't control what people think about, so for me it's obvious that the crime is when a person enacts something in real life. Then punish them harshly in the case of child rape or other sex crimes.
Nancy_Winks
Well-Known Member
I thought it was a more interesting than this thread.
elbows
Well-Known Member
That perception got a boost post-Savile, but it was far from a new phenomenon. Some other perceptions probably had a more dramatic rise to prominence as a result of Savile revelations, but as far as I can think right now they probably aren't much to do with abuse images, cartoons etc. So I'm not convinced attitudes to this stuff have shifted as a result of Savile and the other celebrity cases.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Thing is it's becoming difficult to tell when an image is fake or when it is real. On many smart phones there's a sketch facility that enables you to take a photo and create a sketch-like effect, I'm sure there's one that cartoonises the face as well.
There are worse things in the world than people who like wanking to child rape images not being able to wank to them and I don't care about their rights and don't give a fuck about it sorry. Of all the things in the world to care about such as terrorism, racism, and the like, this is not one of them.
There are worse things in the world than people who like wanking to child rape images not being able to wank to them and I don't care about their rights and don't give a fuck about it sorry. Of all the things in the world to care about such as terrorism, racism, and the like, this is not one of them.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I mean really why would anyone give a shit about these people? With ISIS and Kobane and people being arrested for posts on Facebook and welfare cuts meaning disabled men are being thrown out in the street half dressed why should anyone care about the human rights of someone who likes watching kids being raped?
Explain why I should give a fuck about them?
Explain why I should give a fuck about them?
Chick Webb
Countryfile and a can
Well, Neil Gaiman just explained why he thinks you should in that article.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Well, that's my gut feeling too but then there's Gaiman's assertion
and we're faced with the whole question of who decides, and the inescapable truth of what he says: that laws are big blunt instruments.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
It's more about protecting the right of freedom of expression/minimising govts intervention into our lives than fighting for the right for people to watch cartoon child abuse. I personally would prefer a society where the principle is to keep freedom of expression as wide as possible and also the govt out of our lives as much as possible. I do believe in the 'first they came for the..." idea. We already have a govt trying to use any excuse to be able to monitor any private communication.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Twelve people just got killed over a cartoon of prophet Mohammed, people are now being held over spurious charges in the name of defending freedom of speech, fuck I never thought I'd say this but why the hell is dieudonne being held over a Facebook post after years and years of the French state tolerating his racism? I think the attacks on freedom of speech by government and by religious pressure groups are a bit more of an important issue than some nonce not being able to watch videos of kids being raped don't you?
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
I can't really see why the Japanese would be any different to the population of any other country in their sexual desires & orientations. So one can perhaps assume that Japan contains the same percentage of paedophiles as any other country? So the only difference from say, UK is the law of the land. In the UK we take the view that if anybody is sexually attracted to children they should not abuse children & if they do then they will prosecuted. What we do not do in the UK is give paedophiles any sort of legally sanctioned 'safety valve'. We do not allow possession of sexualised images of kids either in the form of real pictures or artifically produced images. In the UK the argument that its ok for paedos to look at pictures of even drawings of kids being abused is a non starter, simply because the thought of anybody wanking over kids is abhorrent to the vast majority of us.
I think this works because if anybody is even caught with pictures on their computer in the UK their life is effectively over. For an otherwise normal married bloke living on a suburban street caught with child abuse images & done for them thats it, nobody will ever look upon him the same again, he will probably lose his family & his job, everything. So a very powerful incentive for a(non offending)paedo trying to live an otherwise normal life to stay on the straight & narrow. One could argue that we should have sympathy & understanding for people who from no fault of their own are sexually orientated towards kids but who do not offend ever. Perhaps we should give them credit for this? No chance in the UK. This is why I think we have no real idea of percentages of paedos in the UK & any other country with similar laws because in reality nobody is going to 'seek help'. What 'help' could be offered? Don't abuse kids? Well they know that already.
Both UK law & UK public opinion allows zero tolerance of paedophiles & any form of paedo porn/erotica/abuse images so we look upon it from a UK pov. Japanese society appears to allow some tolerance towards paedophiles which generally most UK people would not agree with. I don't believe sexual oriention towards children can be treated or cured. It just needs to be absolutely forbidden for those so orientated to act on their desires in any way. In the UK our laws were not always as strong as they are now & this is same with many other countries so I suppose Japan just needs to catch up & probably eventually it will.
I think this works because if anybody is even caught with pictures on their computer in the UK their life is effectively over. For an otherwise normal married bloke living on a suburban street caught with child abuse images & done for them thats it, nobody will ever look upon him the same again, he will probably lose his family & his job, everything. So a very powerful incentive for a(non offending)paedo trying to live an otherwise normal life to stay on the straight & narrow. One could argue that we should have sympathy & understanding for people who from no fault of their own are sexually orientated towards kids but who do not offend ever. Perhaps we should give them credit for this? No chance in the UK. This is why I think we have no real idea of percentages of paedos in the UK & any other country with similar laws because in reality nobody is going to 'seek help'. What 'help' could be offered? Don't abuse kids? Well they know that already.
Both UK law & UK public opinion allows zero tolerance of paedophiles & any form of paedo porn/erotica/abuse images so we look upon it from a UK pov. Japanese society appears to allow some tolerance towards paedophiles which generally most UK people would not agree with. I don't believe sexual oriention towards children can be treated or cured. It just needs to be absolutely forbidden for those so orientated to act on their desires in any way. In the UK our laws were not always as strong as they are now & this is same with many other countries so I suppose Japan just needs to catch up & probably eventually it will.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
A good test of a law is whether you think you can defend yourself if it's used against you. Not that the test is much use in a country that's practically done away with legal aid.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
How do you know if the images are fake or real? I have already explained that you can't?
And also in this case sorry I don't care, I'm all for more paedophiles and rapists being locked up, I frankly don't give a fuck about their hurt feelings, we don't lock up enough of them and I see things like this as a positive development.
Nancy_Winks
Well-Known Member
It has already been explained, on this thread.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I'm absolutely for freedom of speech/expression here too, and you've just highlighted exactly why sometimes we need to allow things we find personally distasteful and why freedom of speech/expression should be as 'wide' as possible.
Nancy_Winks
Well-Known Member
No one is arguing that paedophiles and rapists shouldn't be locked up. Again, read the argument instead of posting reactionary bullshit.
elbows
Well-Known Member
You don't absolutely have to give a fuck about them, but you should probably give a fuck about whether the methods used to thwart and criminalise their activities spill over into other areas.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The fact is Nancy,
I've always been a bit reactionary over this and probably always will be, the fact is that we don't have an intolerant enough attitude towards this stuff which means that rape and child abuse victims don't report it enough, there's just been a case of a judge only sentencing a teacher for eighteen months over having an affair with a fifteen year old, there's another case where a woman reported what ian Watkins was doing, for years, and wasn't listened to.
I'm all for allowing these people to get help and destigmatising it before an offence is committed but as a society rape and child abuse is not taken seriously enough, having these images in wide circulation helps to normalise it, and helps to make it a lot more acceptable than it would otherwise have been.
I've always been a bit reactionary over this and probably always will be, the fact is that we don't have an intolerant enough attitude towards this stuff which means that rape and child abuse victims don't report it enough, there's just been a case of a judge only sentencing a teacher for eighteen months over having an affair with a fifteen year old, there's another case where a woman reported what ian Watkins was doing, for years, and wasn't listened to.
I'm all for allowing these people to get help and destigmatising it before an offence is committed but as a society rape and child abuse is not taken seriously enough, having these images in wide circulation helps to normalise it, and helps to make it a lot more acceptable than it would otherwise have been.
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
And actually, I don't think anyone here was arguing for it to be OK to watch videos of kids being raped. We are talking about cartoons.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm a bit confused, how have laws against child pornography (as opposed to laws against hate speech/public order/blasphemy) etc contributed to a restriction on freedom of speech?
This is a genuine question because I can't think of any examples?
Athos
Well-Known Member
The whole 'effect of video games' thing is rubbish. I spent my childhood playing Pacman. Did I grow up to spend time in darkened rooms with flashing lights and repetitive music, gobbling pills, and thinking I could see ghosts? Oh... Hang on...
Shite.
- Status
