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Loads of profs and docs dissent from Darwinian "consensus"

When someone keeps wanting to talk about 'Darwinism' rather than what actual evolutionary biologists are up to these days, it always makes me profoundly suspicious.

I don't think you really know what evolutionary biologists are 'up to'. In our discussion so far you've been out to lunch. You can't answer the question I asked.


I think it's fair enough to talk about 'Darwinism' if you make it clear you mean some historical movement, or 'pop Darwinism' or the state of evolutionary theory before the modern synthesis with genetics and or something, but the way it's being used above seems to me quite shifty.

The ideas of Gould and Margulis, or at least the ones that actually stood up to scientific scrutiny, are part of modern evolutionary biology alongside selection, genetics and a whole bunch of other stuff. There is debate about how those pieces fit together to be sure, but someone claiming that e.g. selection no longer plays any role at all has either been seriously misled or is trying to mislead. Thing is, if someone makes such a claim it is easy to show that it is false, whereas waving fuzzy terms like 'Darwinism' around especially if you're conflating what the quote above describes as that word's 'neutral' meanings with the creationist ones, makes it easier to mislead without being shown to be factually wrong. Given that the creationists are doing PR and cultural engineering, rather than trying to get the facts straight, this is a convenient move for them and one which it pays to be alert to.

Did you even know who Margulis was before I mentioned her? I believe you did a search on the net and suddenly know so much, and top that off with declaring her theory proven true. :hmm:

Who claims "selection no longer plays any role"? Who's misleading? ;) :p
 
Well that's just it isn't it? By talking about 'Darwinism' your statements can't be evaluated for truth against modern evolutionary biology. So you get away with a lot of creationist bullshit.
 
Bernie, who is getting away with "creationists bullshit"? Earlier in this thread you seemed to be suspicious of my using general terms. There's nothing 'creationists' about using them. If you allowed yourself to become more familiar with the arguments you'll eventually see that things aren't divided simply between "creationists" and naturalists. You talk about cultural engineering, well, this oversimplification is promoted by the neo-darwinists who are the front line defense of naturalism while in the back rooms evolutionary biologists talk about how it doesn't work. If anyone else questions Darwinism and/or naturalism they're assured it's okay and given the standard neo-darwinian puppet show (like the Kenneth Miller one I linked to). That's cultural engineering at its best.

The idea of the the battle being strictly between creation and naturalism gets used the same as any other in all the great debate topics. There's a superficial level that elements of both sides use in their favor. They argue against the weakest, most ridiculous and outdated points of the other. In this debate it's the neo-darwinists and the young earth creationists. These are the most superficial groups of each side. It only does us good to understand this and go where the real debate is.

I'll always argue that Darwinism should be able to stand on its own no matter who is asking the questions. How can anyone disagree? Darwin's theory makes certain predictions and it should held to them. If the evidence doesn't match the prediction then the theory should be suspect instead of pretending there is something wrong with the evidence or fixing the theory with imaginary evidence. Circular reasoning is not evidence. Darwinism has become a theory that can't be disproved when neo-darwinian imagination passes as stopgap evidence.

The Kenneth Miller neo-darwinian pit bulls should insult our intelligence.
 
“…all evolution is due to the accumulation of small genetic changes, guided by natural selection, and that transspecific evolution is nothing but an extrapolation and magnification of the events that take place within populations and species.”

“[Darwinian evolution, above]...beguiled me with its unifying power when I was a graduate student in the mid-1960’s , since then I have been watching it slowly unravel as a universal description of evolution.” ….

“...then that theory, as a general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy.” – Gould, Is a New and General Theory of Evolution Emerging?



“Darwin’s assumption that the tree of life is a consequence of the gradual accumulation of small hereditary differences appears to be without significant support. Some other process is responsible for the emergent properties of life, those distinctive features that separate one group of organism from another—fishes and amphibians, worms and insects, horsetails and grasses.” – Brian Goodwin, How the Leopard Changed its Spots
 
Darwin was a long time ago. It's easy to show that he was wrong in certain areas, he didn't know about genetics for example, but that has no relevance to modern evolutionary biology which incorporates anything that stands the test of science, including some of Gould's ideas where there is evidence to back them up.

Of course, if you have a creationist agenda and are trying to confuse people, then the fact that evolutionary biology has moved on since Darwin allows you to make stupid triumphalist statements. Like "Darwinism is dead!!!"

Let's be very clear about this. Creationists prefer to argue with stuff that's 150 years out of date because it's easier than arguing with modern evolutionary biology.
 
And then there's the agnostics, as I said...:hmm:

One needn't be a creationist to be critically minded and take on whatever needs taking on...:cool:
 
Darwin was a long time ago. It's easy to show that he was wrong in certain areas, he didn't know about genetics for example, but that has no relevance to modern evolutionary biology which incorporates anything that stands the test of science, including some of Gould's ideas where there is evidence to back them up.

Of course, if you have a creationist agenda and are trying to confuse people, then the fact that evolutionary biology has moved on since Darwin allows you to make stupid triumphalist statements. Like "Darwinism is dead!!!"

Let's be very clear about this. Creationists prefer to argue with stuff that's 150 years out of date because it's easier than arguing with modern evolutionary biology.

Bernie, the more you talk about this the more you show that you have no understanding of the state of evolutionary biology, Darwinian evolution or Gouldian evolution.

I'm going to put the important parts of the quotes in my last post in red.

I should have said this earlier:

Nobody is saying that Darwinian evolution doesn't bring change. Natural selection brings tremendous change. The problem is that it doesn't produce the amount needed as Darwin's theory says. It works great at producing change within types, or "lower levels", but it fails at change between types (transspecific), "higher levels". This is what these guys are talking about.

If you take the time to learn this stuff Bernie, it's not confusing. The terms won't confuse you. In the world of biology a single word can have multiple meanings. All it takes is familiarity to know how it's being used. It's not a trick of "creationists". It happens when naturalists talk amongst themselves. If you would only get serious and quit being arrogant or scared of the debate and bother reading some of these arguments against Darwinian evolution (or Gould) made by creationists, yes creationists, some do a great job, then you'd see. You'd see the academic landscape as I've described it, that being the promotion of textbook Darwinism as a standard defense of naturalistic philosophy while the top evolutionary biologists and theorists know different.

You're just dead wrong on this. Just so you know, I think a lot of your ideas on other stuff but you're so pickled in neo-darwinists brine.

We've not even got into Gouldian evolution yet but it has problems too. There is no theory to date, not naturalistic or creationist, that doesn't have major problems either empirically or otherwise. That's just the facts. It's not a "creationists" agenda.
 
Nobody is saying that Darwinian evolution doesn't bring change. Natural selection brings tremendous change. The problem is that it doesn't produce the amount needed as Darwin's theory says. It works great at producing change within types, or "lower levels", but it fails at change between types (transspecific), "higher levels". This is what these guys are talking about.

I'm not sure Gould and Goodwin are talking about the same thing.

If you take the time to learn this stuff Bernie, it's not confusing. The terms won't confuse you. In the world of biology a single word can have multiple meanings. All it takes is familiarity to know how it's being used. It's not a trick of "creationists". It happens when naturalists talk amongst themselves. If you would only get serious and quit being arrogant or scared of the debate and bother reading some of these arguments against Darwinian evolution (or Gould) made by creationists, yes creationists, some do a great job, then you'd see. You'd see the academic landscape as I've described it, that being the promotion of textbook Darwinism as a standard defense of naturalistic philosophy while the top evolutionary biologists and theorists know different.

The obvious puzzle in evolutionary biology is the question of how complex designs of organisms came about. This is what excites both creationists and Darwinian popularisers - and rightly so. All this transspecific stuff and all this stuff about molecular biology (drift and neutral theory etc.) does not address this question. Of course these questions are interesting in their own right, they perhaps shows that Darwinian principles are not quite as all powerfull as was once thought.

The Origin of Species despite its flaws answers this "big" question of design superbly and in this respect has hardly dated. This is why we still talk about Darwinism (or more correctly neo-Darwinism). Of course the theory itself has evolved, but for elementary pedagogic purposes it is proper to stick to textbook neo-Darwinism.

We've not even got into Gouldian evolution yet but it has problems too. There is no theory to date, not naturalistic or creationist, that doesn't have major problems either empirically or otherwise. That's just the facts. It's not a "creationists" agenda.

Of course! But to me the problems in evolutionary biology seem trifling in comparison to the problems in theorectical physics. Scientific theory is problemlematic. Nothing new there.
 
The obvious puzzle in evolutionary biology is the question of how complex designs of organisms came about.
Is that such a puzzle? We're very bad at properly setting vast periods of time into context. Life has had billions of years to evolve. It is hard to conceptualise what could be possible over such a vast time period. Years ago, Dawkins came up with a simple computer program that mimicked simple evolution by starting with a very simple shape. Within just a few generations, very complex shapes had developed.

I suspect that this puzzle is mostly a problem of imagination.
 
I'm not sure Gould and Goodwin are talking about the same thing.
Yes they are. :hmm:


The Origin of Species despite its flaws answers this "big" question of design superbly and in this respect has hardly dated. This is why we still talk about Darwinism (or more correctly neo-Darwinism). Of course the theory itself has evolved, but for elementary pedagogic purposes it is proper to stick to textbook neo-Darwinism.

design? :confused:

No one is talking about design.

When Gould and Goodwin criticize Darwinism in the quotes above they're attacking the point of transspeciation, not complexity. To be clear I should say the mechanism.
 
Is that such a puzzle? We're very bad at properly setting vast periods of time into context. Life has had billions of years to evolve. It is hard to conceptualise what could be possible over such a vast time period. Years ago, Dawkins came up with a simple computer program that mimicked simple evolution by starting with a very simple shape. Within just a few generations, very complex shapes had developed.

I suspect that this puzzle is mostly a problem of imagination.

As I said imagination isn't evidence of a process or evidence of something that brings that change. I have Dawkins' software program. It does exactly what the parameters allow. That's not evidence either.
 
Thing is though, we know the creationists do have an agenda and that they are prepared to use dishonest means to achieve it. We know that they are willing to try to represent the likes of Dembski as providing alternative scientific theories.

I have no issue with honest discussions of 'Darwinism' or 'neo-darwinism' in a scientific context (e.g. as Gould or Margulis might use the terms) or in the context of philosophy or the history of ideas. I merely point out that in the context of a PR campaign to get their superstitions taught on an equal footing with science in schools, creationists quote statements made in the course of such discussions out of context and with the intention of misleading the public.
 
Thing is though, we know the creationists do have an agenda and that they are prepared to use dishonest means to achieve it. We know that they are willing to try to represent the likes of Dembski as providing alternative scientific theories.

I have no issue with honest discussions of 'Darwinism' or 'neo-darwinism' in a scientific context (e.g. as Gould or Margulis might use the terms) or in the context of philosophy or the history of ideas. I merely point out that in the context of a PR campaign to get their superstitions taught on an equal footing with science in schools, creationists quote statements made in the course of such discussions out of context and with the intention of misleading the public.

And there you go with the typical neo-darwinian response: that something is "taken out of context". Well I can tell you it's not. When students are taught this stuff their hands go up. These "taken out of context" arguments are a smokescreen.

You seem to be obsessed with the overall philosophical battle. Well that's a given, as one writer wrote, "it goes all the way to the bottom". I agree, mostly. I only have the question that everyone does when the discussion finally comes to deistic evolution and theistic evolution. I find myself leaning towards the line that says there would be no reason other than wanting to believe at least for deistic evolution. Some neo-darwinists are christians. I believe Miller is catholic himself.

I think Ruse said it best:

“If people want to make a religion of evolution, that is their business, but we should recognize when people are going beyond the strict science, moving into moral and social claims, thinking of their theory as an all-embracing world picture. All too often, there is a slide from science to something more.” – Michael Ruse, How Evolution Became a Religion, National Post (May 13, 2000)
 
I've seen creationists make those sorts of 'science is a religion' noises before.

I can't say I'm particularly impressed by them though. Key difference is that Gould, Margulis and Wynne-Edwards were still doing science and got discussed in real journals. Dembski doesn't because he's not doing science, (merely theology dressed up in equations) not because scientists are actually a cult of some kind. I'm sure it's very convenient to claim otherwise but I'm afraid it just doesn't wash.
 
I've seen creationists make those sorts of 'science is a religion' noises before.

Yeah but what about when naturalists say it? Ruse is no creationist.

And as for this idea that creationists are non-science oriented while naturalists are open and honest, what about when the religion of Darwinism causes good scientists to be dishonest? You pretend that there is no agenda on the part of naturalists.

“We paleontologists have said that the history of life supports [gradual evolution], all the while really knowing that it does not.” - Niles Eldredge, Time Frames
 
Thing is though, it's a bit like the way the climate contrarians who made that crappy Channel 4 programme used Carl Wunsch. He was making some perfectly reasonable points about the nuances of atmosphere/ocean interactions, but the programme makers, being contrarian polemicists edited it to make it appear that he was saying that the sun was responsible for all warming.

Similarly, when you get someone like Ruse trying to make legitimate points about the philosophy of biology saying something like that, or you get Margulis on a rant about resistance to her ideas, the creationists pick it up for PR usage.
 
Well creationists are surely not going to let anything slip by. Everyone's an opportunistic feeder. But that's not the same as misrepresenting the facts.

These convenient admissions come from when naturalists are talking amongst themselves in an effort to be real with science, sell their theory etc.. The very same people will then turn around and promote neo-darwinism when creationists show up like hyenas. What we have there is naturalists, who make up the majority of scientists, playing adolescent games, one of not letting 'creationists' in on the discussion and pretending their questions don't count. They don't want to cede anything in the public arena.

Steven Weinberg thinks Phillip Johnson is one of the best critics of Darwinian evolution. If I were you I'd get his books and start reading. Be objective and stop being a Sean Hannity on this. :p
 
Which creationist challenges to the actual science haven't been answered over and over again? (and repeated over and over again by the creationists despite that)
 
If the Bible had been more specific about astronomy we'd be having the '20,000 scientists dissent from Copernican "consensus"' thread.
 
Well, take the very common creationist claims about the absence of transitional fossils. These are answered straightforwardly enough by examples of the same.

Of course you could say that you meant more subtle and intelligent creationist criticisms of evolutionary biology, but that would sort of oblige you to say what they are ...
 
Well, take the very common creationist claims about the absence of transitional fossils. These are answered straightforwardly enough by examples of the same.

Of course you could say that you meant more subtle and intelligent creationist criticisms of evolutionary biology, but that would sort of oblige you to say what they are ...

Again wrong.... It's well known that transitional types are not at all "enough". In fact there's hardly any as Darwinism predicts.


Each new generation, it seems, produces a few young paleontologists eager to document examples of evolutionary change in their fossils. The changes they have always looked for have, of course, been of the gradual, progressive sort. More often than not their efforts have gone unrewarded – their fossils, rather than exhibiting the expected pattern, just seem to persist virtually unchanged….This extraordinary conservatism looked, to the paleontologist keen on finding evolutionary change, as if no evolution had occurred. Thus studies documenting conservative persistence rather than gradual evolutionary change were considered failures, and, more often than not, were not even published. Most paleontologists were aware of the stability, the lack of change we call stasis."Eldredge, Evolutionary Tempos and Modes: A Paleontological Perspective


You want quotes? I got quotes. ;):p:D
 
You're providing an excellent example of the obfuscation I was talking about earlier, by quoting Niles Eldredge in support of the creationist claims about transitional fossils.

Eldredge himself explains very well how this is intentionally misleading.

In a clear demonstration of how thoroughly political the creationist movement has always been in the United States, Ronald Reagan told reporters, after addressing a throng of Christian ministers during the 1980 presidential campaign, that evolution “is a theory, a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science and is not yet believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was believed.” The creationist who managed to get to Reagan’s handlers later bragged to me that those scientists in question were none other than Gould and me. The syllogism ran something like this: (1) Darwin said that evolution is slow, steady, and gradual; (2) some scientists say that evolution consists of rapid bursts of change interrupting vastly longer periods of evolutionary stagnation; ergo, (3) some scientists don’t follow Darwin, meaning (4) some scientists oppose evolution. Then, as now, at least in the public domain, “Darwin” is code for “evolution.” The two are virtual synonyms.

I take being called anti-Darwinian very personally. It has always hurt, for I have always thought of myself as more or less a knee-jerk neo-Darwinian, someone who thinks the basic mechanism underlying evolutionary change, including the origin, modification, and maintenance of adaptations, resides squarely in the domain of natural selection. And I have always felt that, with one or two major exceptions, my version of how the evolutionary process works lines up very well with Darwin’s. Take natural selection, for example: I see natural selection just as Darwin originally did—as the statistical effect that relative success in the economic sphere (obtaining energy resources, warding off predators and disease, etc.) has on an organism’s success in reproducing.
Niles Eldredge: 'Confessions of a Darwinist' (pdf)
 
You're providing an excellent example of the obfuscation I was talking about earlier, by quoting Niles Eldredge in support of the creationist claims about transitional fossils.

Eldredge himself explains very well how this is intentionally misleading.

Niles Eldredge: 'Confessions of a Darwinist' (pdf)

You mean naturalist's claims.

Uh.. that claim of lack of transitional fossils is what helped spark the whole theory of punctuated equilibrium. So it's not "obfuscation". I'm sure you're impressed with what appears to be Eldredge reaffirming his pure Darwinist blood but weight the need for his authoring an alternative theory against the public PR and see which is heaviest. Did you not understand what I said about these guys being two-faced, one for the public creation/naturalism debate and the other for science?

His bud Gould said that, "the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record" was the "trade secret of paleontology".

Gould btw, played the PR man more than Eldredge.
 
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