Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Jazz history - all of it! The Thread

Wanted to add something about how well the Hot Fives records sold at the time, which nobody expected.

Kid Ory, who plays trombone on the sessions said: “We made our first records in Chicago at the Okeh studios, and, of course, when we made them we didn’t have any expectation that they would be as successful as they became. [...] People [were] crazy about jazz and the Charleston, and our kind of music went over well. Times were good and people had money to buy records. One thing that helped the sale was the fact that the Okeh people gave away a picture of Louis to everyone that bought one of the records. When they did that, sales went way up, because Louis was so popular”. (p109, Hear Me Talkin’ to Ya”).
 
I read something about the Hot 5 and 7s records that may be a bit contentious, but I think I agree with it - basically that these Hot 5 & 7 recordings dont quite work. These records are transitional in that they were still in the New Orleans polyphony style, but as space is made for Louis to solo unaccompanied, a result is that they lose the hotness that bands like Mortons and Olivers had. That solo in Potato Head Blues you posted is incredible, but it doesnt feel "hot" to me - I think Louis smoked a lot of weed (his drug of choice I read), and it does feel a lot more stoned compared to the bourbon fired New Orleans stuff that gone on up till then (that West End Blues drag comes across pretty charged too!).

From what Ive read after this period it didnt take long for Louis to go on to play in settings that gave more space for him to solo without the ghost of New Orlean polyphony hanging over him, and these make more sense.

You can definitely feel the change here, and I expect just as some rag players refused to get into playing in a jazzier style, so New Orleans purists would've balked at these changes (did they?). I wasn't expecting to get into this early hot jazz, but now that i hear it slipping away i'm kind of sad for the change (though that change has come across a week on this thread instead of years). I reminds me a bit like the change from "hot" ska to smokier rocksteady.

Of course that Louis Armstrongs playing was on a different level is universally agreed and his influence in founding the basic vocabulary of jazz, from soloing to scatting is without doubt. Im just saying that his playing dosent really suit the New Orleans style that well - hes beyond it, or if that isnt too judgmental, somehow outside it. What do you think?
 
I think Louis smoked a lot of weed (his drug of choice I read), and it does feel a lot more stoned compared to the bourbon fired New Orleans stuff that gone on up till then.
Louis was a life long marijuana smoker. He recommended to his band members that they smoke weed rather than drinking. He was always annoyed when a band member turned up drunk at rehearsals or a gig, because he felt it sapped creativity. He does have a mellow tone to his sound - in his horn and vocally. But there's something about his fluidity that you can't just put down to "muggles" (as the New Orleans musicians called grass). Compare his version (which I couldn't find on YouTube just now) of King Porter Stomp with the version Jelly Roll and King Oliver recorded.



However, he wasn't all that laid-back. The Hot Fives and Sevens were much faster than what had gone before. I can't remember where I read it, but I think I saw a comparison of beats per minute between the 5s/7s and the King Oliver band, and on tunes that Oliver played at 100 bpm, Louis was clocking up 125 or something.
 
i have a book by Monk's patron Pannonica called Three Wishes, featuring pictures of the great jazz musicians and lists of their three wishes. Most of them wanted more money and to be better at their instrument.
 
i have a book by Monk's patron Pannonica called Three Wishes, featuring pictures of the great jazz musicians and lists of their three wishes. Most of them wanted more money and to be better at their instrument.
I have that. You have to remember that a) they weren't sure how serious she was about recording the wishes, and b) jazz musicians were mostly pretty poor, so it isn't a question of "more" money.

Some are funny. Some just odd.

My favourite was Pepper Adams, who wished for a cure for hangovers, and socialism.
 
I have also made a Spotify playlist for you. SATCHMO!
thanks for putting this together Danny - great listening - seems to me theres so much innovations here from what had gone before - a big jump.

I take back what i said about it not working - the couple of tracks id checked last night from the Hot 5 were more in the New Orleans vein - the tunes you've picked seem very different - its all so different to what had gone before... the drums on Beau Koo Jack completely unlike any of the straight N.O. stuff- the piano on Weather Bird is full of blue notes - and is that brushes on the superstoned Muggles track? I really reckon weed is a big factor here all round :D
 
the tunes with the savoy orchestra and his own orchestra, are they much later that the Hot 5s?

(Just got to mahogany hall stomp the lick from which is the first sample on Gangstarr's Jazz Thing which was a fun surprise)
mahogany hall stomp
 
I have that. You have to remember that a) they weren't sure how serious she was about recording the wishes, and b) jazz musicians were mostly pretty poor, so it isn't a question of "more" money.

yeh i knows that!!:D most of them had nothing. 'money' woulda been a better word, sorry


as for Pannonica....well, she was a jazz nut who sacrificed her whole family to support Thelonious. Brave gal.

at least she took the rap for his drug possession and threw some good parties


My favourite was Pepper Adams, who wished for a cure for hangovers, and socialism.


its a lovely book.
 
the tunes with the savoy orchestra and his own orchestra, are they much later that the Hot 5s?

(Just got to mahogany hall stomp the lick from which is the first sample on Gangstarr's Jazz Thing which was a fun surprise)
mahogany hall stomp

The Savoy Ballroom Five are regarded as being part of the Hot Fives and Sevens. Initially they were the same personnel. But the 1929 sides under that name had Eddie Condon and Lonnie Johnson on guitar.

The bands called "Orchestra" vary. Initially it's just a Hot Five, but eventually it's the name his big band takes, in around 1929. But there's a lot of overlap in the dates. That's partly why I sneaked some big band numbers into my playlist. To demonstrate the progression.

Here's the dates of the tracks I collected on the Spotify list:

St Louis Blues – Louis Armstrong Orchestra(10 members) (1929)
West End Blues – Hot Five (with Earl Hines) (1928)
Beau Koo Jack - Savoy Ballroom Five (1928)
Weather Bird – Duo with Earl Hines (1928)
Muggles – Louis Armstrong Orchestra (1928) (five members)
Knockin’ A Jug – Orchestra (5 members) (1929)
I Can’t Give You Anything But Love – Savoy Ballroom Five (1929)
Basin Street Blues – Louis Armstrong Orchestra (1928) (five members)
Mahogany Hall Stomp – Savoy Ballroom Five (1929)
Ain’t Misbehavin’ – Louis Armstrong Orchestra (1929) (10 members)
(What Did I Do To Be So) Black and Blue? – Orchestra (10 members) (1929)
Potato Head Blues – Hot Seven (1927)
Struttin’ With Some Barbecue – Hot Five (1927)
Savoy Blues – Hot Five (1927)
Gut Bucket Blues – Hot Five (1925)
Cornet Chop Suey – Hot Five (1926)
Heebie Jeebies –Hot Five (1926)
Dinah – Orchestra (9 members) (1930)
When It’s Sleepy Time Down South – Louis Armstrong Orchestra (14 members)(1941)
 
Thanks for taking the time for that Danny. I see now the years are a bit later than i thought at first, which explains the progression a bit more.
Would you mind giving us a sneak run down of what the next few posts will be and what years they deal with? Are we moving out of the 20s?

I can see that its not convenient to go up a year at a time, and unlike Jamaica, a relatively small country, the States has different things going on in different cities simultaneously, so it makes it a bit harder to conceptualise the timeline...
 
Thanks for taking the time for that Danny. I see now the years are a bit later than i thought at first, which explains the progression a bit more.
Would you mind giving us a sneak run down of what the next few posts will be and what years they deal with? Are we moving out of the 20s?

I can see that its not convenient to go up a year at a time, and unlike Jamaica, a relatively small country, the States has different things going on in different cities simultaneously, so it makes it a bit harder to conceptualise the timeline...
Well, some of the Hot Fives and Sevens I selected are actually several years earlier than some of the other artists we've already had. Gut Bucket Blues was 1925. Cornet Chop Suey was 1926. So, like I was saying earlier in the thread, we have these innovations going on at the same time as the recording industry only just catching up with recording the old guard. The first track we had - Freddie Keppard - was recorded in 1926. So was Black Bottom Stomp. The Hot Five had already started recording a year or more before that! So it's difficult to disentangle the time line at this point.

The other problem has already been flagged with people asking things like "what about Bennie Moten over in Kansas City?". Well, exactly. All that is going on while we're still in Chicago. I'm reminded of a line from Ken Burns' Jazz tv series (I'm not sure if he wrote it or quoted it): "Jazz was born in New Orleans, but grew up in a thousand places". And that's what's going on. Those early tourers in the years before recordings had sewn the seeds of jazz, and it's now springing up in many places.

What I was planning to do next was map out the Chicago scene. We need to hear from Bix Beiderbecke and Frankie "Tram" Trumbauer, and Muggsy Spanier, and so on. And then we need to look at why the Chicago scene shrank as the artists fled to New York before the end of the Twenties.

But you're right. A strict time line is going to be hard, as it would break the logical narratives.
 
Thanks Danny. And it dawned on me i think i was getting confused between the Louis Armstrong in King Olivers band recordings with the Hot 5s in terms of him not fitting in all that congruously with the New Orleans sounds - which if ive got it right, Louis went to join King Olivers in 1922 with key recordings in 1923, with the band collapsing in 1924.
 
Thanks Danny. And it dawned on me i think i was getting confused between the Louis Armstrong in King Olivers band recordings with the Hot 5s in terms of him not fitting in all that congruously with the New Orleans sounds - which if ive got it right, Louis went to join King Olivers in 1922 with key recordings in 1923, with the band collapsing in 1924.
Louis left King Oliver in 1924, after which Joe added members to his band to create a nonet. (The trend by the mid 20s was for larger ensembles. Mainly because the larger venues needed a bigger sound. PAs were in their infancy. You just added more instruments to get louder).

The recordings with Louis were in '23, but remember we are still using the old "acoustical" recording method then. Louis had probably already started doing in the live shows with Oliver the things he recorded under his own name in 1925. We can hear snatches/hints of it in the King Oliver recordings. Also, the story goes that Louis had to stand in the corridor so he didn't drown out Joe! Mixing was a matter of where you stood, with the most brilliant sound (not just the loudest) overpowering others. (Duller sounds were very poorly recorded. And pitch mattered too. The range of the cornet was recorded well, but basses not).

By the late 20s Joe had trouble with his embrouchure and by the 30s had trouble with gum disease, and had to stop playing.
 
Bix Beiderbecke

bix.jpg


We have to be quick to catch Leon Bismark "Bix" Beiderbecke. Born in 1903 in Davenport, Iowa, he comes up through the ranks of dance bands and big bands, and records his first great side in 1927. 4 years later he’s dead.

Mississippi Riverboats

Beiderbecke’s father was coal and timber merchant, and son of German immigrants; his mother the daughter of a Mississippi steam boat captain. And it was the river that first introduced Bix to the sound of jazz, as the riverboats with their bands called at Davenport. Louis Armstrong’s biographer, Terry Teachout, writes that Bix and Louis first met when the SS Sidney stopped in Davenport in 1919, when Bix was a teenager teaching himself the cornet by ear. “He’d come down to hear the bands, and then go home and practice what he’d heard,” remembered Louis (Teachout, “Pops”, p119).

Bix also loved the records of the ODJB, and went on to record his own versions of several of their tunes. He was, above all, a hot jazz purist, and his first band, the Wolverines, modelled themselves on the New Orleans sound. However, Bix was also interested in “classical” music, and, like Armstrong, was a fan of Debussy and Bartok. These influences will also creep into his writing. We can hear it most clearly in his famous piano piece, In A Mist, but it is also present in his horn solos.

Alcoholism
His career was also plagued by alcoholism, and despite his growing reputation, no matter what record sales he clocks up, he was also convinced his stature was ill-deserved, and that his talents were over estimated.

"Famous Fourteen"
In 1925, when playing a holiday resort in Michigan, he teams up with Frankie Trumbauer, a saxophone player he’d first met while still with the Wolverines. Together they join Jean Goldkette's "Famous Fourteen" big band, but also record a number of small band sides under their own names.

In February 1927, under the name Frank Trumbauer and His Orchestra featuring Bix Beiderbecke, they record Singin’ the Blues:



It begins with Frankie Trumbauer on C-melody sax, through which you begin to hear the amazing guitar improvising of Eddie Lang. Then at around 1:02, Bix comes in. His sound is lyrical and thoughtful, but at the same time he absolutely swings. The technology of the time doesn’t give us his full sound as heard in life, but his friend Ralf Berton memorably said his notes were like “bullets shot from a bell”.

Later that year, Bix and Tram join Paul Whiteman’s band. They still record records under their own names, though, and in October they record Jazz Me Blues under the name Bix Beiderbecke and His Gang.



Jamming with Pops
Louis Armstrong goes to see Bix in the Whiteman orchestra in 1928, when they play Chicago. He invites Bix back to an after-hours jam session in the club he’s playing, and the two hit it off and become friends.

bix14.jpg


Death
However, Bix doesn’t cope well with the constant touring in the Whiteman band, and his drinking is getting worse. During performances he’ll pass out from too much alcohol, and just before he is due to take a solo, fellow band members have to shout “Wake up Bix!”. After a breakdown in 1929, he returns home to Davenport to convalesce. His parents send him for the notorious Keeley Cure. He tries to return to the Whiteman band, but his health is clearly deteriorating rapidly, and he is unable to keep dates, and begins forgetting his parts. In 1930 Whiteman finally sacks him. The following year he dies from pneumonia, aged 29.

Here’s Bix on piano in 1928:



Bix on CD:
Morton & Cook recommend At the Jazz Band Ball (vols 1&2) on Columbia records.


But you might also consider the 4 CD set from JSP, Bix and Tram:
41BC9EZ2ZNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 
i was fortunate enough to pick up a vinyl copy of The Complete Wolverines (Fountain Records FJ-114) recently for a couple of quid. the extensive sleeve notes begin with this statement:

"Bix apart, they weren't really a very good band. If Jimmy Hartwell's clarinet impersonations of Rapollo were a bit pallid, George Johnson's technical lapses on tenor were downright embarassing. They could only play in three or four keys. The rhythm tended to be lumpy, especially when Min Leibrook got carried away. Vic Moore, crouched behind the painted pines on the big bass drum, was an often perillously wobbly timekeeper. But inspiration is its own contagion, and the Wolverines had contagion aplenty in Leon Bix Beiderbecke."

personally, i think that's a very harsh assessment of a record that, to my ear, has a beautiful energy and enthusiasm, with Bix blowing up a veritable storm in amongst some very enjoyable jazz music.
 
i was fortunate enough to pick up a vinyl copy of The Complete Wolverines (Fountain Records FJ-114) recently for a couple of quid. the extensive sleeve notes begin with this statement:

"Bix apart, they weren't really a very good band. If Jimmy Hartwell's clarinet impersonations of Rapollo were a bit pallid, George Johnson's technical lapses on tenor were downright embarassing. They could only play in three or four keys. The rhythm tended to be lumpy, especially when Min Leibrook got carried away. Vic Moore, crouched behind the painted pines on the big bass drum, was an often perillously wobbly timekeeper. But inspiration is its own contagion, and the Wolverines had contagion aplenty in Leon Bix Beiderbecke."

personally, i think that's a very harsh assessment of a record that, to my ear, has a beautiful energy and enthusiasm, with Bix blowing up a veritable storm in amongst some very enjoyable jazz music.
Yes, they aren't among the great, Bix aside, but they're certainly worth exploring, as you explore Bix.
 
whatever his quality as a pianist that is an incredible composition. I think another of his is called Flashes (from a quick youtube) - thats got some great ideas in it too. What a loss...
Yes, they were apparently meant as a part of a set: In a Mist, Candlelights, In the Dark, and Flashes.
 
I've dug out versions of these played by someone else on Spotify. Candlelights and In the Dark are nice but In a Mist and Flashes are really special - In a Mist sounds utterly contemporary to me - well, from the early 60s maybe - and such a contrast to the New Orleans-style stuff he was up to (though there are some of those elements there too i guess). A real revelation this track - looks like its a bit of a standard though - lots of versions of it on youtube
 
I've dug out versions of these played by someone else on Spotify. Candlelights and In the Dark are nice but In a Mist and Flashes are really special - In a Mist sounds utterly contemporary to me - well, from the early 60s maybe - and such a contrast to the New Orleans-style stuff he was up to (though there are some of those elements there too i guess). A real revelation this track - looks like its a bit of a standard though - lots of versions of it on youtube
[tease]There's a version of it by another player coming up later in the thread.[/tease]
 
I guess 1920s Chicago is Al Capone era - anyone recommend a good film that captures the mood of Chicago in the 20s - preferably with a lot of music in it? Reno?
 
Oh not Bix Beiderbecke already. I was enjoying the anticipation. More lesser known stuff or even mediocre stuff. We need to pad this out and burn slowly. Whatever you do don't do Fats Waller next!

This is great stuff though. I've been secretly reading this at work.
 
Oh not Bix Beiderbecke already. I was enjoying the anticipation. More lesser known stuff or even mediocre stuff. We need to pad this out and burn slowly. Whatever you do don't do Fats Waller next!

This is great stuff though. I've been secretly reading this at work.
We won't be going to Harlem quite yet. I have to get through Chicago first!

I did swither about doing Bix now, but I wanted to start the Chicago school of white jazzers, and Bix was the logical place to start.
 
Just looking for films on jazz of 1920s and earlier period and theres two new ones that are worth noting:


Louis (2010)
A silent film paying homage to Louis Armstrong, Charlie Chaplin, and the birth of American music. Loosely based on jazz great Louis Armstrong at age six. Starring Jackie Earle Haley.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093902/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

and
Bolden!
Stars Anthony Macke as jazz pioneer Buddy Bolden--his rise to fame and his later fall into schizophrenia.
This hasnt come out yet, but theres oscar buzz about it according to IMDB
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0858419/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

also found these listed:

Ragtime (1980)
Based on the E.L. Doctorow novel, Ragtime explores the Roaring Twenties from the perspective of race and class struggle. We watch the unfolding of the anarchist movement in the US in response to economic, political, gender based discrimination and racial issues that boiled over in the years during and after WWI. Ragtime examines the Jazz culture and the rise of the African American in the music industry. Stars James Cagney.

The Cotton Club (1984)
1920s black tap dancer (Gregory Hines) and white cornetist (Richard Gere) struggle for success while dealing with bootlegging mobsters; includes good recreations of some of the famous Cotton Club performances (Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway, dancers, etc.).

The Gig (1985)
Amateur Dixieland band encounters the realities of the professional music business and the people in it.

The Five Pennies (1959)
Story of Loring "Red" Nichols, the 1920s cornetist/band leader, played by Danny Kaye. Includes Louis Armstong performances.

St. Louis Blues (1958, Alan Reisner)
Nat King Cole plays the turn-of-the-century blues musician and composer W.C. Handy. Cast includes Ella Fitzgerald, Cab Calloway, Eartha Kitt, and Mahalia Jackson.

Pete Kelly's Blues (1955)
Jack Webb as 1920s cornetist runs afoul of the Kansas City mob. Includes jazz singers Ella Fitzgerald and Peggy Lee, plus good jazz combo. Watch this film mainly for the music.

Young Man with a Horn (1950)
Loosely based on the life of the legendary 1920s (white) cornetist Bix Beiderbecke, played by Kirk Douglass. Well-acted.

New Orleans (1947)
Trite plot set in Storyville and the French Quarter of New Orleans provides opportunities for good jazz performances by Louis Armstrong, Billie Holliday, Kid Ory, and other jazz greats.

Birth of the Blues (1941)
Bing Crosby founds the first all-white jazz band (fictional) in New Orleans. Features Jack Teagarten jazz band.

The Jazz Singer (1927)
In this early part-silent, part "talkie" film, the main character, played by legendary Al Jolson, must choose between a jazz career and his traditional Jewish father; unfortunately, the ending includes the famous black-faced rendition of "Mammy."

Our Dancing Daughters (1928)
"Transitional talkie" (no actual talking, but some sound effects) starring a young Joan Crawford as a jazz babe/flapper. Watch an authentic 1920s Charleston!
This ones on youtube
 
Back
Top Bottom