Jazz history - all of it! The Thread

[malatesta32]

yeah, the development between rags, marching bands, blues etc needs clarifying.

 

[Corax]

I was expecting a catalogue of vaccine claims and the like.

 

[ska invita]

yeah, the development between rags, marching bands, blues etc needs clarifying.

i think danny is starting mid 20s so we've got a couple of weeks to talk about what was going on before then...

 

[killer b]

i have a decent smithsonian anthology of early jazz, who's liner notes may be of interest - you can download them from the smithsonian website.

http://www.folkways.si.edu/jazz-vol-1-south/blues-ragtime/music/album/smithsonian this is volume 1, which is mainly blues & country. link to the pdf of the liner notes is halfway down the page.

 

[malatesta32]

ooh okay. this is a great idea by the way.

 

[killer b]

(remaining volumes can be found in this search if anyone wants to read further) http://www.folkways.si.edu/search/jazz,-vol.

 

[danny la rouge]

i think, not sure, danny la rouge is starting a bit later than that - so its a good time to talk pre-jazz and try and get to grips with all the roots off jazz stuff...

Knowing where one thing starts and another ends in a continuum is a tricky business, especially at a time we have few records. Nobody wrote down jazz until Jelly Roll Morton published the sheet music for Jelly Roll Blues in 1915, although he says he had composed and performed it 10 years earlier than that. (He was a braggart, but that’s highly possible: he had left New Orleans to tour his music by 1904, and it’s reasonable to assume his style was fully formed by then). Nobody called the genre jazz (or jass, the spellings were interchangeable at first – even the word was in flux!), until around 1915, and as we know, some of the old players went on calling their music ragtime.

Gary Giddens dates jazz from the early 1890s or late 1880s. What certainly true is that bands playing a variety of styles rather than specialising – ragtime, blues, folk tunes, popular songs, brass band music – began blending those styles. We hear accounts of the Excelsior Brass Band and the Onward Brass Band “ragging” tunes - that is syncopating them and applying other elements of the ragtime idiom. When Bunk Johnson was finally recorded (after being sought out by the authors of the seminal jazz book Jazzmen, Frederic Ramsey, Jr. and Charles Edward Smith), his sides sound very brass band-like.

In some ways it’s easier not having confusing early recordings that we have to mull over and decide whether they’re jazz or not.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just under a week to go, but here are some examples of the sort of things that were in the mix in New Orleans at the end of the 19th Century.

Spoiler: fife and drum

Spoiler: Field (prison) Holler

Spoiler: Work Song

Spoiler: Rag Time

 

[Knotted]

Isn't the supposed West African origins of Jazz/Blues/Gospel a myth?

 

[danny la rouge]

Isn't the supposed West African origins of Jazz/Blues/Gospel a myth?

The first two are American forms. The last is a bit more complicated. Who said they were West African?

 

[Knotted]

I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[8ball]

Just under a week to go, but here are some examples of the sort of things that were in the mix in New Orleans at the end of the 19th Century.

Spoiler: fife and drum

Spoiler: Field (prison) Holler

Spoiler: Work Song

Spoiler: Rag Time

See, would this have been so hard to do on the moon landing thread?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm just thinking aloud.

Oh, OK.

 

[ska invita]

Just under a week to go, but here are some examples of the sort of things that were in the mix in New Orleans at the end of the 19th Century.

Spoiler: fife and drum

Spoiler: Field (prison) Holler

Spoiler: Work Song

Spoiler: Rag Time

in addition to this great selection above from Danny I'm going to try and put down some of the things you find in the first chapter in jazz history books, and presume no prior knowledge. Hopefully of interest to those reading and definite use to me to help me remember... Obviously im missing lots out, or else it would be a book!

So although its been contested that New Orleans is the birthplace of jazz it looks like it almost certainly is, and there's a lot of evidence to say there is. So lets say it is. And so here's some stuff about New Orleans and the music that came to be there:

NEW ORLEANS

Founded May 7, 1718 by the French.

Loads more history here that’s too long to go into, but New Orleans was a mix of French, Spanish, German, Carribean and African cultures.

1800s onwards - New Orleans perhaps the most cosmopolitan and increasingly wealthy trading port in the world...

1808 – Influx of Haitians displaced by the revolution, bringing their own musical traditions.

1819 – Evidence of African drum circles playing on Sundays in Congo Sq in the heart of town. Quite likely happened before then too, but theres an account written in this year.

Written descriptions describe a range of drums accompanied by a string instrument, possibly a bit like the Malian Kora

Incidentally it is said that the banjo is a translation of an african stringed instrument – and were found in the Caribbean as early as the 1600s.

African traditions tended to be stamped out harshly by salve owners in the States, as they were considered acts of rebellion. The fact that drum circles were allowed in New Orleans were a sign of the somewhat unique relative “freedom” slaves in the area had. I think Im right in saying in New Orleans slaves had the potential to buy their freedom and other arrangements came to pass.

A key feature of the Congo Sq dances (and beyond) was the “ringshout”, people get into a circle, singing, clapping and dancing. The call and response parts became particularly influential in early jazz it is said.

1830s – "In the fall of 1818, Bulger Francis "Frank" B. Johnson, a popular band leader, and one of 5 African-American composers and musicians of color founded the Negro Philharmonic Society in New Orleans, Louisiana. The Negro Philharmonic Society was a symphony orchestra comprised of more than 100 performers including a few white members." The NPS played on through into the 30s at least.

New Orleans was a city that teemed with music, dancing, festivals and funeral processions, and classical and parlour music also played their part. Colliers book The Making of Jazz talks a bit about the Creoles – people of primarily French and Spanish descent born in the Americas, but in practice included people from all heritages. Over time they saw themselves as a threatened class and made great efforts to maintain european culture, speaking a French patois and aping French culture. Part of this according to Colliers was the keeping of mistresses, which often included non “white” women. One way or another Creole culture was “racially” mixed

After the civil war finished new laws came in in Louisiana to try and counterforce the abolishment of slavery, one of which was Louisiana Legislative Code III which stated that anybody with African blood was a Negro. Creole culture came under threat and those identified as black increasingly impoverished, but one way it resisted extinction was through music, and that meant through classical music training. So yeah, there was classical music and training going around too.

1830-40 The rise of Minstrel Shows – effectively white people 'blacking up' and playing 'black music'. Ted Gioia says that many people hadnt heard the music first hand as it spread around the country, so was in fact a white approximation at southern black music – but also adds that nor had lots of other northern black people, so they heard this europeanised version of the music and took it on face value – the point being that minstrels shows are important for both spreading 'black' music, and also in fusing it with european traditions.

Famous minstrel number – O Sussanah


1865 – the end of the Civil War in the US, and a point were the continuity of slavery was much threatened as many black slaves had been fighting in the army. Also beginning of decline of New Orleans wealth, as it fell on the wrong side of Mason-Dixon line... and trains started doing what steamboats had done previously

1880s – often would hear Mexican cavalry bands playing in New Orleans. These seem to have been big bands – loads of horns and drums etc.

Ted Gioia cites one track in particular as capturing this influence:
"Los Campanillas" is the only unpublished piece by the black New Orleans composer Basile Barès (1845-1902) to survive in manuscript—and what an intriguing work it is. Even those few scholars who have written about Barès don't seem to comprehend the significance of this score. The habanera rhythm employed here is the same that Scott Joplin would later rely on for "Solace," Jelly Roll Morton for "The Crave," and W.C. Handy for "St. Louis Blues." <all classics of early jazz

You can hear a snippet of Los Campanillas here – track 7
http://www.allmusic.com/album/music-of-basile-barès-mw0001392300
And heres The Crave (1910)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjCiSZ66Tw

1885 The end of congo square and supposedly the nascent beginning of jazz bands

Ted has done a history of New Orleans music in 100 tracks here – well worth reading if you want more info
http://www.jazz.com/features-and-interviews/2009/8/26/new-orleans-100-tracks-part-one

1880 - Average life span for a black native 36, 45 for a white native, infant mortality 45% - still a tough place to live.

1897 – establishment of the brothel district in New Orleans aka Storyville– all that partying created lots of spots for gigs for musicians, and a wide audience with different roots. Most often it would just be a piano, occasionally bigger ensembles.

Storyville brought together blacks (who tended to play the blues) and black creoles, who had better access to instruments and european classical training. The prosecution of 'black' creoles forced a greater fusion, and according to Collier a majority of the first jazz players identified as primarily Creole.

1898 End of the Spanish-American War - this had the side effect of flooding junk shops with cheap second hand brass and wind instruments, army surplus style. Up until that point (and also in the future) such instruments would be prohibitively expensive, so this was a significant event.

By 1895 -1910 There was “a cadre of New Orleans musician who were at home in a variety of musics – the blues, rags, marches, popular songs, in many cases themes from overtures and operas and specialty numbers."

It was a fusion of all these styles that created jazz.....

 

[ska invita]

A brief bit about the church...

The evangelical Christian message appealed to poor white folks and slaves, primarily as they related to the message that all are equal (in the eyes of God) – which was obviously in direct contrast to day to day experience. It reinvigorated a sense of self-worth that slavery and poverty had been crushing over years.

Slavery in the US was “abolished” over time in different places, and adding to that there were lots of slaves who ran away. However whatever the time, despite evangelical preachers pushing a line of universal equality, there was still a colour divide within churches themselves – black people were (on the whole) not welcome in white churches. This had the effect of forcing black people to create their own churches, which took on their own traditions, including musical ones.

There was also an active program throughout the 1800s by the church and religious 'europeans' to 'de-africanise' black traditions through pious, drum-free church music. This backfired spectacularly as what ended up happening was 'european' church music became 'africanised', with enormous implications for 20th century music.

Bringing this back to New Orleans, here the Latin Catholic church was dominant, as opposed to the Anglo-Protestant church of the north and east. For historical reasons (including its own persecution) the Catholic church was much less strict on adopting hybrids of cultural practice, and used this is a survival and spreading technique. So in New Orleans there was little resistance in the way Christian music was being adopted and played with it.

Nice little video here – including the role of the ringshout
The Ringshout & the Birth of African-American Religion


Apologies for poor spelling and bad grammar in all the above, ive tried to edit it since posting, but its a bit rushed and the screen is small for such a long text.

 

[ska invita]

Post removed as i reckon it jumps ahead too much

BTW - this clip is incredible

Spoiler: fife and drum

supposedly recorded at Newport Jazz Festival in 66! Would love to see - hear - longer footage

 

[danny la rouge]

I think it will date before where Danny starts (might be wrong)

Not really, for reasons I'll explain. But anyone reading the book/s will probably be ahead of where we start anyway, so it's fine.

 

[Knotted]

ska invita, you've made a great thread beautiful. I'm now afraid to post on it in case I spoil it.

 

[malatesta32]

i love this pic. it suggests the wild playfulness of KO. also female vocalist (no instument?)

 

[soundsystem]

Post removed as i reckon it jumps ahead too much

BTW - this clip is incredible


supposedly recorded at Newport Jazz Festival in 66! Would love to see - hear - longer footage

I think that footage is from the documentary Festival! about the Newport Folk Festival - it's on US Netflix if you have access to it, I watched it the other night and there was definitely some fife and drum music very similar to that... not sure if there's much more than the clip though.

 

[ska invita]

ska invita, you've made a great thread beautiful. I'm now afraid to post on it in case I spoil it.

thanks Knotted, ive just summarised the first chapter or two in the two jazz history books i got - probably got things a bit wrong or made them too crude so best to get the books and read for yourself rather than my approximations. I've skimmed over much, especially about the blues and ragtime, but I think with ragtime as Danny starts leading off next week going through year by year and artist by artist that stuff will come through.

Once Danny gets going it will be a lot easier to post - we'll know what year we are all on, and we'll know what artists we're talking about, and we can chip in more readily. The pre-history is a huge subject. I know a bit about 50-70s jazz, but knew zero on the early period and its starting to really come alive for me now, the sense of place, the history, the heat, the mosquitos, no sewage... mentioned this to Ms Invita and she was saying how she had a thing for New Orleans through the Interview with a Vampire books - Le Stat the main vampire lives in New Orleans and spends his long life as a musician, picking up all these skills and traditions... they're fun books to read I hear, I know a couple of people who have read them and you get addicted and end up reading them all....I might have a go now too.

I do love how music history is tied inescapably from 'real' history > its a good way of sugar coating history lessons! I said earlier but this thread will take a year I reckon so still not too late to get a book in (if just one get Ted Gioia's - its £12). It'll crawl forward slowly so plenty of time to read and keep up.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

If you jump to 1minute 14 seconds it says on the screen of the video "Recorded in 1954 by George Eaton Simpson".

 

[danny la rouge]

i love this pic. it suggests the wild playfulness of KO. also female vocalist (no instument?)

Lil Hardin, piano. (She later married Louis Armstrong).

 

[danny la rouge]

Post removed as i reckon it jumps ahead too much

BTW - this clip is incredible


supposedly recorded at Newport Jazz Festival in 66! Would love to see - hear - longer footage

Yes, but that's as long as I've seen it. It's been used in a number of films about jazz and blues, including Sorcese's Blues thing, where they interview Othar Turner and Sharde Thomas.

 

[TruXta]

they're fun books to read I hear, I know a couple of people who have read them and you get addicted and end up reading them all....I might have a go now too.

First couple are decent, it rapidly takes a turn for the worse the further down the line you go. /derail

 

[malatesta32]

Lil Hardin, piano. (She later married Louis Armstrong).

ah i remember now when i was reading a net-biog of joe oliver. apologies for jazz blunder!

 

[Knotted]

mentioned this to Ms Invita and she was saying how she had a thing for New Orleans through the Interview with a Vampire books - Le Stat the main vampire lives in New Orleans and spends his long life as a musician, picking up all these skills and traditions... they're fun books to read I hear, I know a couple of people who have read them and you get addicted and end up reading them all....I might have a go now too.

Mrs Knotted has these somewhere. I've been meaning to read them for a long while.

 

[danny la rouge]

I said earlier but this thread will take a year I reckon so still not too late to get a book in (if just one get Ted Gioia's - its £12). It'll crawl forward slowly so plenty of time to read and keep up.

Just out of interest, is anyone getting the recommended reading? It'll enrich your appreciation of the subject, whether you are read up by the time the thread starts or whether you take the book/s up later.

You could try asking your local library if they can help.

I've got an earlier edition, but I think this is the latest:

Ted Gioia, The History of Jazz, Second Edition (New York: Oxford University Press, 2011).

 

[Bernie Gunther]

How many pages until we get to Jo Jones?

 

[kittyP]

Great thread
I started to get interested in Jazz when I helped my then boyfriend write an essay on the history of Bossa nova for his degree but over all I know very little other than I find it interesting and great to listen to.
Thanks for all the great info