Is my builder taking the piss?

[AnnO'Neemus]

Job was delayed for ages because of the pandemic. And then because I was easygoing and let other jobs leapfrog over me, and also a couple of times start dates weren't convenient for me because of medical appointments or work or whatever.

Anyway, I'd been chasing him up the past couple of months and finally got a start date, Monday 1 August. I texted him the day before to ask what time and he replies that he can't start work till Wednesday or Thursday now. Which clash with my part-time job and medical appointments.

Tbh, I thought he would've come round the week before to go over the plans, finalise things, etc. I mean, I don't even know if he's been able to sources all the materials and supplies or whether he's going to change things and make things up as he goes along. (I've had bad experiences with builders and other trades in the past.)

I was under the impression my bathroom would be done in a week Monday to Friday, the first week in August.

I text him on the Friday before at lunchtime.

He replied he can't start till Wednesday or Thursday. (More notice would've been because I'm trying to juggle my work shifts and arrange medical appointments around the dates I was given.

Gets to Tuesday I text him I have a hospital appointment 10am Wednesday and ask what time he planned to start.

He replies that he's now planning to start Thursday, 10:00-10:30.

I thought builders work 8-4, but figured that maybe on the first day they might need to go and pick up materials and supplies for the job so they'll do that first and then come to mine.

But since then they've never done a full day. Thursday, spent half a day ripping out old bathroom. (I'd even given them a bit of a head start, because they'd started the job on Thursday instead of Monday, so I'd chipped tiles off the walls and removed bath panel.

Friday, self-levelling concrete flooring was put down. I was told it takes 3-4 hours to set, but didn't look like much else, if anything was done.

Monday, stripping woodchip wallpaper removed from ceiling and skimmed with plaster. The area is tiny. The bathroom is literally just the size of a small bath, toilet and the basin's in a small alcove. I would've expected professionals to start earlier and get more done.

Today a bit more plastering, including plastering around a wooden door frame, which needs to be ripped out and replaced. I'm getting the feeling that he's going to ignore that and just bodge it.

My bathroom is so tiny and I'm shocked at how slow it's going. A job that should have taken a week isn't even half done.

I mean, I'm not daft, I know that sometimes you have to wait for things to dry, like floor levelling and plastering. But it's the way that they don't do other bits of the job, it's like they arrive late, work for 2-4 hours, then down tools and fuck off.

I know they have other jobs on, but I'm feeling like mine isn't the main job this week (which I'd thought it would be, because it's a small job, so should have been possible to do quickly).

Instead of doing my bathroom Monday to Friday, I've been left without a functioning bathroom over the weekend as the job is spread over two weeks.

I've tried to be amenable, flexible, but now it seems like they're taking the piss. Or is this normal for builders?

 

[cesare]

It's normal for some builders. How did you choose them?

 

[spanglechick]

From the start, this builder has let you know that you are low priority for him. He’s clearly doing more profitable jobs in preference, and tbf, you say you allowed that a couple of times, so he’s almost certainly allowed that to inform his attitude ongoing.

All I would say, is it’s been bastard hot and if you have a very small space that absolutely will have some impact on how many hours people should do manual labour. However - if that is the problem - you’d expect them to arrive early. You might find he’s struggling to get reliable workers, given the weather and it being holidays.

It’s up to you, because I know these conversations can be tricky, but it would be reasonable to text and say you need to sit down with him tomorrow to discuss concerns you have about the progress of the job.

 

[LDC]

Sounds like standard builder stuff to me (in my very limited experience of builders). It's the quality of the work that matters at the end of the day really, so long as he gets it done roughly on time and budget anyway.

 

[Duncan2]

Construction generally notorious for delays it seems to me.We asked a local builder to reconstruct a perimeter wall one half of which had collapsed outwards onto the lane - he didn't start work for three months.Nor was he grateful when he did come to find that I had done the easy bits in terms of salvaging bricks removing tree roots and digging a trench for the foundation.Eventually though the wall was done and done well.

 

[spanglechick]

I do think (having previously been in a relationship with a builder for a few years) that there’s a gap in the market for a kind of “kwik fit”, pay-a-bit-more-but-know-you-won’t-be-actively-defrauded” general builders’ brand.

 

[not henry]

He's deffo ripping the piss. If no pipes or radiators needed moving a three piece bathroom suite can be changed in a day by a competent plumber and mate. If he is laying a floor that cannot be stepped on for 3 or 4 hours then if he puts it first thing he has wasted a dsy

 

[spanglechick]

danski - can you give any insight?

 

[co-op]

I do think (having previously been in a relationship with a builder for a few years) that there’s a gap in the market for a kind of “kwik fit”, pay-a-bit-more-but-know-you-won’t-be-actively-defrauded” general builders’ brand.

This sort-of exists already really in that if you pay more you can get into demanding time-penalties. Really there are 3 factors for any building job; quality, cost and time and you cannot get all three, they are exclusive of each other, but you should be able to get 2 out of the 3.

Let's assume that no one wants to skip out on quality (although fucking landlords often do), then the choice is really between cost and time. If you pay enough you get an on time job, otherwise, the sacrifice is that the job will over-run, and that is basically guaranteed.

You can of course get unlucky but that bad luck is usually for the contractor too since if the job turns into a bastard they will be taking a hit too so some of your over-pay on normal jobs is absorbing this, iyswim.

 

[spanglechick]

This sort-of exists already really in that if you pay more you can get into demanding time-penalties. Really there are 3 factors for any building job; quality, cost and time and you cannot get all three, they are exclusive of each other, but you should be able to get 2 out of the 3.

Let's assume that no one wants to skip out on quality (although fucking landlords often do), then the choice is really between cost and time. If you pay enough you get an on time job, otherwise, the sacrifice is that the job will over-run, and that is basically guaranteed.

You can of course get unlucky but that bad luck is usually for the contractor too since if the job turns into a bastard they will be taking a hit too so some of your over-pay on normal jobs is absorbing this, iyswim.

That’s not really what I meant. This still requires you to do the whole macho-dick-measuring relationship bollocks that sees so many people find working with builders intimidating. And many builders do take against and deprioritise customers they think are clueless or whatever. As do some mechanics. I take my car to kwik fit because the prices are published, the timescales are clear and the staff don’t make off-colour jokes or make me feel stupid. I accept that I pay more than the ideal local garage, but I’ve been ripped off by some of those.

I’d like a brand name firm if household builders, with published day rates, clear website, and bookable dates for the work.

 

[bellaozzydog]

He’s juggling you with other jobs

I had a discussion with my plumber and his mate. They gave me a date and a list of what material was required (from my spec)

I bought the material in, full bath shower conversion laminate floor tiles etc

His mate did it alone in four days…. I wasn’t even in the country I left keys with neighbour

Tradesmen seem to be insanely busy and the default round my way talking to others in the middle of renovations is there is too much work and a lot of desperate punters tradesmen are leaping between jobs they’ve over priced and need to do.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I do think (having previously been in a relationship with a builder for a few years) that there’s a gap in the market for a kind of “kwik fit”, pay-a-bit-more-but-know-you-won’t-be-actively-defrauded” general builders’ brand.

Talking to another plumber he actively advertises as “will turn up and do the job for the fixed rate” and is inundate with work

 

[danski]

danski - can you give any insight?

Sadly not as I’m having issues with the people that worked on my house. It’s rather embarrassing tbh.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Round this way if the waves are pumping every other van at the beaches parking is a tradesman’s van

I’ve suggested to my university debt dodging nephew that he wouldn’t regret (at least financially) learning a trade (sparky or one of the unicorns of the tradesman’s world gas safety plumber)

600 quid cash in hand to put my new (exactly same layout as old boiler) boiler in. 120 quid an hour.

 

[DownwardDog]

I didn't need to read one word of this discussion to know that the answer is, with certainty, 'YES'.

 

[jontz01]

It's a tough life in the trade. The pressure can be immense, balancing everyone's needs. Often tradespeople are great at the job but not great at the other aspects of business, such as time management... As long as the quality of workmanship is good, stick with it as best you can..

 

[jontz01]

Round this way if the waves are pumping every other van at the beaches parking is a tradesman’s van

I’ve suggested to my university debt dodging nephew that he wouldn’t regret (at least financially) learning a trade (sparky or one of the unicorns of the tradesman’s world gas safety plumber)

600 quid cash in hand to put my new (exactly same layout as old boiler) boiler in. 120 quid an hour.

Got to catch the waves while they're there...

 

[Edie]

Am having a pain in the arse getting my bathroom done AnnO'Neemus so sympathies.

Said it would take two weeks, but juggling so many other jobs it’s taken five and counting.

Had to ask for the tile trim to be re-done as wasn’t up to standard. They broke the bath panel, so had to replace that. Etc etc.

I just made a list, emailed it, said this wasn’t to the standard of finish I’d expected from his firm. To be fair to them they came back and politely made good everything.

The end is in sight but my god you cannot just trust people to get a job done. You have to project manage it and quality check it yourself.

Remain polite but keep your standards. It’s tough because obviously as Brits we’d rather gouge our own eyes out or live forever with shoddy work than actually fucking say anything. But you gotta put your big girl pants on and hold firm. Good luck!!!!

 

[A380]

There are so few people around now that people can take the piss. Mind you its not a new thing.

Just after my son was born (2000) our neighbours in the other half of a semi had a loft conversion done. The builders would turn up 730/745. Make loads of noise, hammering drilling etc as you would expect - which was great as my son wasn't sleeping and often would go off about 5. Once our neighbours went to work about 830/845 the builders would give it another half hour then fuck off presumably to other jobs.... After three weeks we told our neighbours and it got a bit better. (They also fucked up the drawings, everything seemed a bit small. Years later we had our loft done, our neighbours kindly lent us their drawings, our architect looked at them for a few days and was very puzzled. After a lot of re measuring it turned out the neighbour's builders had put the floor in about 30 cm higher than was designed, the pitched roof meant all the rooms were much smaller than was designed...)

I've been luck in finding a guy who knows what he is doing and always turns up when he says and works long days. Trouble is he's expensive and always massively booked up.

 

[co-op]

I've been luck in finding a guy who knows what he is doing and always turns up when he says and works long days. Trouble is he's expensive and always massively booked up.

This is it. You will always have a cost vs time curve. Get one or get the other.

Or sometimes get both wrong of course

 

[killer b]

I think this is just how it is getting any trades in atm - there are not enough to go round, and they're all working full time on more lucrative jobs and can only fit you in when they can fit you in. As said above - if the standard of work is up to scratch you're basically doing as well as anyone I know who's had work done lately.

 

[killer b]

That said: I'm willing to bet there's a noticeable difference in levels of service, priority given etc between single female clients and male clients.

 

[jontz01]

It's not always a case of more lucrative jobs either though. Sometimes it's just the daily grind. It's easy to get behind on a job or two, and sometimes move onto another job while there's a hold up. But then all your floating cash is tied up in the first job (or two) so you have to do everything possible to get back, finish it and send the final bill. Which often means rushing around, balancing staff, tools and materials.

Personally, I'll never start a job until one is finished, I don't carry any costs other than my labour but I'm lucky that I'm not financially stretched. I see it time and time again, guys overwhelmed but having to pull it all together day after day with mouths to feed and a mountain of bills to pay. It's very easy to criticise people in the trade because the average Joe only sees what happens on their site, not the drafting quotes at 2am, going to the builders yard at 7am, having to take the kids to a job on a Saturday morning to finish off and get paid that week. And people think that tradies charge an arm and a leg, they must sleep on gold mattresses. Forgetting that a third of that income is gone before you see it and another third pretty much gets reinvested in order to get out of the door and do the job in the first place...

Sorry, that's probably a bit of a rant on behalf of all the tradies grafting at all hours of the day and trying to hold it together... Luckily, I'm not in that boat but I see it all around me.

 

[jontz01]

I've been luck in finding a guy who knows what he is doing and always turns up when he says and works long days. Trouble is he's expensive and always massively booked up.

Then hold on to him for dear life, make him a flask of tea and don't skimp on biscuits. The reason he's expensive and booked up is pretty apparent!

 

[bellaozzydog]

It's not always a case of more lucrative jobs either though. Sometimes it's just the daily grind. It's easy to get behind on a job or two, and sometimes move onto another job while there's a hold up. But then all your floating cash is tied up in the first job (or two) so you have to do everything possible to get back, finish it and send the final bill. Which often means rushing around, balancing staff, tools and materials.

Personally, I'll never start a job until one is finished, I don't carry any costs other than my labour but I'm lucky that I'm not financially stretched. I see it time and time again, guys overwhelmed but having to pull it all together day after day with mouths to feed and a mountain of bills to pay. It's very easy to criticise people in the trade because the average Joe only sees what happens on their site, not the drafting quotes at 2am, going to the builders yard at 7am, having to take the kids to a job on a Saturday morning to finish off and get paid that week. And people think that tradies charge an arm and a leg, they must sleep on gold mattresses. Forgetting that a third of that income is gone before you see it and another third pretty much gets reinvested in order to get out of the door and do the job in the first place...

Sorry, that's probably a bit of a rant on behalf of all the tradies grafting at all hours of the day and trying to hold it together... Luckily, I'm not in that boat but I see it all around me.

Sorry a tradesman’s personal admin isn’t my problem.

I had a chippy turn up to fit two internal doors. He quoted me a high price and trotted off, I decided fuck it just get him to do the job and messaged him.
He rang me the day He was booked to come and said can he come and take cash off me for the materials. I said get them together and I’ll pay for them over phone.
He explained that that wouldn’t work as the merchants had frozen his account as he owed them money and hasn’t paid, could I pay off what he’ owed at the merchants in cash so he could get his credit back to get the doors for me.

I politely declined

 

[Aladdin]

One of the best plumbers ever (according to my dad who was a qualified clerk of works) .. was a lad who literally was a genius. He worked on my brothers place. He couldn't keep up there was so much work coming in for him.
Both knees were fucked up by the time he hit 35.
The lad had to stop working recently for good. He's waiting on 2 knee replacements.

As for the OP...did you have a timeline in the contract?

 

[WouldBe]

Also with independent plumbers they may have to go to an emergency at another customers place.

 

[izz]

It's so tough, we've had work done by quite a few local people and the quality hasn't always been great and they've all juggled with other jobs. Sometimes there's a need for a visit from Little Miss Stroppy, who wants a definite end date. There's little point threatening to withhold payment but there may be a point offering a bonus for 'finishing ahead of schedule'.

 

[jontz01]

Sorry a tradesman’s personal admin isn’t my problem.

I had a chippy turn up to fit two internal doors. He quoted me a high price and trotted off, I decided fuck it just get him to do the job and messaged him.
He rang me the day He was booked to come and said can he come and take cash off me for the materials. I said get them together and I’ll pay for them over phone.
He explained that that wouldn’t work as the merchants had frozen his account as he owed them money and hasn’t paid, could I pay off what he’ owed at the merchants in cash so he could get his credit back to get the doors for me.

I politely declined

Standard tradie with poor cash flow, in too deep and trying to blag it back out. Can't blame you for running a mile, I would too.

Quotes are a nightmare for all involved for so many reasons.

 

[Winot]

It's a tough life in the trade. The pressure can be immense, balancing everyone's needs. Often tradespeople are great at the job but not great at the other aspects of business, such as time management... As long as the quality of workmanship is good, stick with it as best you can..

Why is this, do you think?