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Is it pointless attempting to conceive the notion of higher dimensions?

kyser_soze said:
That sounds a little like 'God does not play dice' to me - you've already decided that there must be an explanation, and that it must be a single, universal causal explanation. AFAIR that's NOT how science works.

Worse than that: when Unca' Albert said "does not play dice" he was talking (explicitly outside of science) about what he didn't want to accept - without prescribing what the universe might turn out to be; whereas this:

merlin wood said:
Because you wind up with a Cosmos that really does have enough significance from a human point of view.

is setting out a programme to force the universe to conform to merlin woods' preconception/revelation that there must be "enough significance" to suit him.

As I said, the drawback of writing plain English (or plain maths) is that it makes it explicit what's going on. Hence the attachment to obscurantism in such writings. I see a lot of them...
 
kyser_soze said:
That sounds a little like 'God does not play dice' to me - you've already decided that there must be an explanation, and that it must be a single, universal causal explanation. AFAIR that's NOT how science works.

"Already decided"(?) I don't understand.

In my blog. if you had paid some attention to it's content rather than its style you would have found that I start by proposing a reasoned hypothesis that is a development an existing and widely recognised hudden variables interpetation of the evidence of quantum physics.

This hypothesis then provides reasons to consider that a cause with certain general properties as it woukd act universally that I could clearly describe or represent..

I then find indications that this quantum hypothesis can be supported by considering large scale observable and consistently comfirmed evidence of where such a cause could also be thought to act.

If this is not science then I don't know what is.

So, as I say, it's you who are not making any sense at all Kyzer soze. So arseholes to you once again and up yours if necessary.

And I suggest that you do your trolling elsewhere or preferably, just desist.

Since it contains only words and diagrams and no mathematics then you can say that this hypothesis is not like any physics that explainsthe behaviourof matter and energy by describing any of the known forces. But then as I've said before. I'm not talking about a cause that acts like any force.

So think, in particular, of a cause of quantum entanglement where, unike the effect of any force, just a correlation can be measured and described at a distance between particular forms of quantum behaviour. And so that this effect has no measurable strength at all.

Now a physicist of the forces can say that this entangled effect has no cause. So what could cause anything to occur if it has no strength of effect?

Whereas my hypothesis proposes that to make sense of quantum entanglent a cause needs to act so as to maintan the correlation, otherwise there just would be any measurable effect at all. And the if you consider the electron's wave property then you can think of this as acting so as maintaining the electron it's orbital around the atomic nucleus.

Then think that this would be a cause that could not be decribed as acting so as to attrect or repel objects and so need not have any strength that can vary or cease with increasing distance then you have a nonlocal cause that cannot be desribed as acting as it surround objects in 3D space. Although a simple diagrammatic means can be used to clearly although indirectly represent how such cause could act from additional spatial dimensions.

And then I find that this representation of an extra-dimensional cause can used in consider the relationship of the mind to the body and with regard to certain problems of mind and consciousness.

All this could be thought a bit mind blowing, indeed, and so you could think that that it desrves a more lengthy treatment than in my blog hypothesis. But then I'm still working on it.
 
merlin wood said:
If this is not science then I don't know what is.

Yes, you're making an increasingly good case that you don't know.

If it were science, you'd be able to describe an experiment that would distinguish it from actual theories.

If it were good science, you'd be able to do so in five lines.
 
laptop said:
Yes, you're making an increasingly good case that you don't know.

If it were science, you'd be able to describe an experiment that would distinguish it from actual theories.

If it were good science, you'd be able to do so in five lines.

Laptop, the great Lord of Science hath spoken!

And so six, seven or eight lines won't do to describe this experiment then? Oh dear. And how many lines did it take, for example, to describe enough details of an experiment that could detect neutrinos?

And quick everybody, let's brand the theory of organic evolution a pseudoscience because no experiment has been carried out to clearly show that life on Earth naturally evolved!

But you may decree what you like, laptop.

Because for one thing, as I say, this theory of an extra-dimensional material form conserving and organisation maintaining cause is still very much a work in progress and so may still only be regarded as a general hypothesis.

But as it stands this hypothesis already distinguishes a nonlocal causal account of quantum physics as the only interpetation that can be developed into a hypothesis that clearly predicts certain specific properties of mind and consciousness. And even if there is no actual experiment that could clearly demonstrate this.

While the cosmological hypothesis in my blog may not stipulate any specific and definitely workable experiment that can clearly support the theory.

But this account can be considered to predict that a detailed nonlocal causal cosmological theory could be developed that would be supportable by astronomical observations and measurements, as well as a conceivable experimental test that could detect a shortage of lower energy solar neutrinos.

And also that such a theory could replace those of cosmic inflation, nonbaryonic or WIMP dark matter and dark energy.
 
merlin wood said:
And quick everybody, let's brand the theory of organic evolution a pseudoscience because no experiment has been carried out to clearly show that life on Earth naturally evolved!

Evolution is espistemolically a special case. Confusing the question of evolution with the question of origins is obfuscation.

You're the one trying to issue decrees. Perhaps you could more profitably use your time inventing a board game?
 
What do you think the underlying mechanism for quantum entanglement will be if it does not include additional dimensions?

I guess it has something to do with the concept of time...cause and effect and all that.

My gut feeling - additional dimensions will come into the frame.
 
laptop said:
Evolution is espistemolically a special case. Confusing the question of evolution with the question of origins is obfuscation.

You're the one trying to issue decrees. Perhaps you could more profitably use your time inventing a board game?

Well I say a nonlocal causal theory that is justified by the evidence of quantum physics and that predicts certain properties of mind and consciousness is also a special case.

And my blog clearly indicates how such a theory can be developed that justifies in detail the properties of a nonlocally acting and form conserving cause so that it also explains certain general features of the behaviour of living organisms.

Whilst a detailed nonlocal cosmological theory that can be supported by astromical observations and measurement would serve to further support the nonlocal theory of atoms, molecules and living organisms including human beings.

So instead of faffing about here, laptop, why not try designing computer games that can be used to refute scientific theories?

I'm sure that way you could con a lot of people into believing in your opinions rather than the natural facts.

But then you need to bear in mind that you can't fool all of the people all of the time and you could end up fooling none them none of the time.
 
User 301X/5.1 said:
What do you think the underlying mechanism for quantum entanglement will be if it does not include additional dimensions?

I guess it has something to do with the concept of time...cause and effect and all that.

My gut feeling - additional dimensions will come into the frame.

Well my conclusion is that if you think about quantum entanglement causally, User 301X/5.1, then additional spatial dimensions have to come into the frame. And also the concept of time that, as relativity theory indicates, can only be conceived as existing or passing as the result of objects in motion in the world of four dimensional spacetime.
 
"Already decided"(?) I don't understand

You've already got the answer, you're now looking for evidence to support it. Pretty simple English really, especially in the context of this debate.

if you had paid some attention to it's content rather than its style

Unfortunately the style makes paying attention to the content extremely difficult - along with bad grammar, your writing lacks clarity and conciseness. Even from studying social sciences, I know that a hypothesis shouldn't be more than a few sentences, and that explaining an idea should be done as succinctly as possible.

Stop being so damn defensive and calling me a troll - I'm not. I'm actually interested in what your idea is since AFAIC when it comes to QM no one really knows dick about the 'why', even about the stuff that can be used practically, but even the basic concepts of QLG, Brane theory etc can be explained in a few lines, even if those few lines are completely capable of breaking people's heads.

So calm down and EDIT.

Also, you yourself state that because it's experimentally unverifiable, String thoery is bollocks - fair enough, but you don't make a convincing case that you OWN ideas are experimentally viable either
 
And how many lines did it take, for example, to describe enough details of an experiment that could detect neutrinos?

Judging from Wiki's entry on it, about 5 or 6, much as I remember being shown way, way back in school science classes.

And quick everybody, let's brand the theory of organic evolution a pseudoscience because no experiment has been carried out to clearly show that life on Earth naturally evolved!

There are plenty of experiments going on in the area of synthetic life that aim to show precisely this; not to mention the extrapolated fossil DNA record, current observations of at least 10 species over the last 5 years that have shown evolutionary change in either behaviour, physiology or both...
 
Experiments don't have to be done in the lab, or with apparatus built by humans. An experiment can be as little as 'what do we observe when sorting dinosaur skeletons by the number of vertebrae in their spines?'
 
kyser_soze said:
Stop being so damn defensive

It would help if you stopped being so fucking offensive. So you should realise that I've been working for more than two decades in total isolation attempting to find the best way of expressing this hypothesis.

And so, in fact, I managed to construct of the basic initial argument for the universal action of a nonlocal cause some two years after I read about Alain Aspect experiment in 1982, which measured, for the first time, long distance entanglement as an effect that occurs at faster than the speed of light. These two years being the time I needed to be able to find a clear diagrammatic means of directly relating quantum entanglement to the problems of mind that I had encountered in studying for a philosophy degree.

And this time since 1984 has included almost one decade trying to argue, quite fruitlessly, the valdity of this causal hypothesis on the internet to ego-tripping physicists who think they know it all about quantum physics.
 
Well we'd like to help you, but in terms of presentation, you're not doing well. So much so, that it's so hard to tease the actual meaning out that we can't give you meaningful criticisms/help.
 
Crispy said:
Well we'd like to help you, but in terms of presentation, you're not doing well. So much so, that it's so hard to tease the actual meaning out that we can't give you meaningful criticisms/help.

But then, as I say, I'm working on it.

And I don't really need criticisms but rather someone with a bit of imagination and the required acumen in physics to at least start to develop a detailed enough nonlocal causal cosmological theory.
 
Crispy said:
Well we'd like to help you, but in terms of presentation, you're not doing well. So much so, that it's so hard to tease the actual meaning out that we can't give you meaningful criticisms/help.

...and then as to the meaning of by blog hypothesis, wel there was a guy who contrute to the philophy section of u75 forum who called himself nosos, and who seemed to figure it ou pretty well.

But here, for what it's worth is a summary of the blog argument.


So for a start, unike the standard model of quantum and particle physics that just recogizes the action of the push or pull causes called the forces, my account is the outline, anyway, of an sufficient general explanation of how matter in general exists as observed.

That is, how matter as atoms, molecules and living organisms can persist in their various and particular forms and given that, in the 3D space experienced, you can consider that the world is made just of its smallest parts and the forces that surround such subatomic compoments of matter.

And also how matter can exist given that it consists almost all of the space between its universal components as electrons and atomic nuclei that are measured to be around a billionth of of its volume and this despite the powerful forces acting within and upon matter.

So that basically one can conclude that a universe that everywhere consists just of particles and the push or pull or attract or repel forces and yet is composed of all its various forms of matter as the elements and compounds of inanimate matter and the species of living organisms just doesn't make sense.

And also doesn't make sense however the standard model of quantum theory and partical physics may, by measurement, calculation and mathematical formulae, describe the subatomic particles and their behaviour and the forces that act between them.

So that, with just a knowledge of the action of the forces, Richard Feynman could reasonably insist of the quantum mechanical description of the behaviour of quantum objects - as the photons of radiant energy and the subatomic components of matter - that "nobody knows how it can be like that".

And yet one can ask how and where in the world can there be anything more than these objects that are detected as particles and the forces that act between the particles of matter?

While my blog argues that although no clear and sufficiently justified answer can possibly be found to this question from any kind of experimental evidence of inanimate matter or the energy it radiates by itself, it is possible to find an answer when considering certain evidence of living organisms as well.

So that, in short, enough details could be found, described or represented and sufficiently justified of a cause that acts universally in addition to the forces only by deducing,

(1) hypthetically, that and, in enough clear detail, how, in particular, quantum wave and entanglement behaviour could be the effects of a cause that acts unlike any force and then

(2) how, in the light of such a causal quantum hypothesis and certain problems of mind, how the mind or subject of experience as a distinct and immaterial entity could relate to the body so as to produce consiousness.

And so that this cause could neither be described as pushing or pulling objects so as to produce its effects nor as acting in fields that surround objects nor as acting at a distance with any measurable strength.

But rather this cause could be considered to act universally so as to maintain or conserve the form and organisation of matter as atoms, molecule and living oranisms and despite the action of all the forces.

And then by acting invariably at any distance between objects and with no strength that reduces or ceases with distance this cause can't be described as surrounding objects in 3D space. So that such a cause could only be diagrammatically represented or pictured as acting upon matter and radiant energy from additional dimensions of space to the three in the world experienced. And only thus can one think of this cause as being unaffected by the action of all the forces.

While I've shown how this extradimensional action of such a cause resolves the problem of how there can be many immaterial minds each with unique points of view on the world and how the individual's consciousness can be regarded as necessarily indivisible.

In the blog account it can be also found how the form conserving property of the cause can be related to certain general feature of the behaviour of living organisms including human beings.

And although not on my blog, I have had thoughts that a quite detailed theory could be developed of the evolution of consciousness in living organisms.
 
Let me paraphrase what you said:

Most of the universe is empty space. Particles are very small compared to the space over which they have influence. This doesn't make sense. How do these things exist in the way they do?

Current science cannot explain it, but by considering liveing things, we can explain it. I suggest that there is a cause, residing in extra dimensions, that is responsible for the organisation of matter and energy. It is also responsible for consciousness.


Would that be about right?
 
Crispy said:
Let me paraphrase what you said:

Most of the universe is empty space. Particles are very small compared to the space over which they have influence. This doesn't make sense. How do these things exist in the way they do?

Current science cannot explain it, but by considering liveing things, we can explain it. I suggest that there is a cause, residing in extra dimensions, that is responsible for the organisation of matter and energy. It is also responsible for consciousness.


Would that be about right?

Nope. Not good enough. So that even in this grossly abbreviated form I'd insist that my argument should read like this:

Most of the universe is empty space. Particles are very small compared to the space over which they have influence and powerful forces can be measured to atraact and repel between them. This doesn't make sense. How do these things exist in the way they do?

Current science cannot explain it, but only by considering living things together with the evidence found of non-living matter, we can explain it. I suggest that there is a cause, residing in extra dimensions, that is responsible for the d organisation of matter and energy. It is also responsible for consciousness,

And only by justifying and describing enough detals of this cause from enough observable evidence examined together can both the existence of matter in general as observed and of the mind and consciousness be sufficienly explained
 
Fair enough - that's better than wading through 1000 words in #225

Altho pinning it down like that you're still basically making an argument for God:

I suggest that there is a cause, residing in extra dimensions, that is responsible for the d organisation of matter and energy. It is also responsible for consciousness,
 
Innit. Nothing special about consciousness, as far as I can see. It's an emergent property of the physical structure of the body and brain.
 
merlin wood said:
Well my conclusion is that if you think about quantum entanglement causally, User 301X/5.1, then additional spatial dimensions have to come into the frame. And also the concept of time that, as relativity theory indicates, can only be conceived as existing or passing as the result of objects in motion in the world of four dimensional spacetime.

So are you saying that the dimension of time is INDEPENDENT of the additional dimensions?

i.e. do you think time is only meaningfull in 4-dimensional spacetime and the additional dimensions are just space??

If so I have never heard of such a notion before. Please explain (concisely).
 
Crispy said:
Innit. Nothing special about consciousness, as far as I can see. It's an emergent property of the physical structure of the body and brain.

Except that what produces consciousness needs to be extradimensional and so results from a single univeral cause that would interconnect all matter and also all minds together in these extra dimensions.

And that's one of the reasons why I descriibed your summary was grossly abbreviated, Crispy.
 
Except that what produces consciousness needs to be extradimensional and so results from a single univeral cause that would interconnect all matter and also all minds together in these extra dimensions.

Why? Considering you've been working on this for 2 decades, it sounds to me like re-heated Platonism.
 
kyser_soze said:
Fair enough - that's better than wading through 1000 words in #225

Altho pinning it down like that you're still basically making an argument for God:

You can call it a god if you like, kyse_soze, but not as any religion has conceived of it. And I had the thought that my own summary above wasn't really good enough. And essentially because the action of the extra-dimensional cause really needs to be pictured.

Thus in my blog, after representing the cause as it would act so as to produce quantum waves and entaglement, I also visualise this cause as acting upon any element or compound of matter or any species of living organism as follows: http://foranewageofreason.blogspirit.com/images/medium_figure_7.4.jpg

And then I explain this diagram as follows:

We can take figure 7 to be a 3D representation of a 4D cause acting upon any four composite systems of any given type, that is, as four atoms of any element, molecules of any compound or individual organisms of any species that are all composed of subatomic parts. While given the mind depicted as an fourth dimensional cause acting upon individuals of a species of living organism. we can then see how the many immaterial minds problem can be solved in an extraordinary way. For here the mind can be four different subjects of experience just in three dimensional space while also being just one entity as an organisation maintaining cause, but only outside the 3D space where we experience the world. So in this way minds can have many separate identities in the same sense that islands in a sea
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have many separate identities, and especially as represented on a two-dimensional map, while in three dimensions they share a single land surface if the sea bed is included. So that we can say the immaterial mind can have different identities just in virtue of possessing different perceptual vantage points from different bodies in three dimensional space while being parts of a single species form conserving cause in four spatial dimensions.
 
Every single time you write 'The Cause' you can just as easily write 'God'. Just because some desert-scribes didn't conceive of QM that hasn't stopped ideas like the anthropic principle and the space left by the Schrondinger's Cat paradox being colonised by raving god-botherers, and the same applies here.

Hell, I almost had a crisis of non-faith when presented with the probability wave collapse and my own thoughts about the Big Bang - which was promptly solved by someone pointing me in the direction of quantum decoherence.
 
merlin wood said:
Except that what produces consciousness needs to be extradimensional
:confused: Why?

Why is consciousness any more special than, say, neutralisation of an acid, or the fission of uranium?
 
Crispy said:
:confused: Why?

Why is consciousness any more special than, say, neutralisation of an acid, or the fission of uranium?

See post #233 above and my blog. Perseverence should get you somewnere I would've thought.
 
kyser_soze said:
Every single time you write 'The Cause' you can just as easily write 'God'. Just because some desert-scribes didn't conceive of QM that hasn't stopped ideas like the anthropic principle and the space left by the Schrondinger's Cat paradox being colonised by raving god-botherers, and the same applies here.

Hell, I almost had a crisis of non-faith when presented with the probability wave collapse and my own thoughts about the Big Bang - which was promptly solved by someone pointing me in the direction of quantum decoherence.

??
 
What you're doing is re-writing a metaphysics argument that Greek guys in togas were having 3000 years ago. Every single time you write 'the cause' a theist can jump in and say 'That's God'. Your argument is metaphysics, not science.
 
merlin wood said:
See post #233 above and my blog. Perseverence should get you somewnere I would've thought.

Post 233 says nothing about consciousness being a special case :confused:
 
kyser_soze said:
What you're doing is re-writing a metaphysics argument that Greek guys in togas were having 3000 years ago. Every single time you write 'the cause' a theist can jump in and say 'That's God'. Your argument is metaphysics, not science.

You need to distuinguish your oppinions from the natural facts, kyser_soze. But I expect this will come in time.
 
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