Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Is Homosexual Identity Dependant on Homophobia ?

brixtonscot

Well-Known Member
Same sex attraction exists ,
No “big deal” in itself.
(Similar to any relationship
That can stretch from heaven to hell)
Is it only homophobia that makes
same sex attraction a "big deal" ?

IF there was no homophobia
would there be a need to forge an identity
based on specific sexual preferences of sex/gender ?

In that context, is homosexual identity dependant on homophobia ?
( as a very necessary response to serious prejudice )

In other words , in an ideal world , would people be attracted to……
people - with no need for labels ?
 
I think we are dealing with a culture that historically encouraged childbirth from relationships. This was fairly recent and was a reason for much homophobia I think. There were other prejudices which were because people in positions of authority didn’t want other people with particular characteristics to reproduce… as a population in this country I think we are still dealing with the past. Reeling from the past? It was so recent and in living memory that these injustices occurred. We have reached a point of positivity, where for most, that prejudice isn’t there anymore.

I’m not sure we can think about ideals. We are where we are right now and what has happened has happened. We can’t escape from it. We still need to deal with it to make sure it doesn’t return (and it is returning in some places).

Can identity help us to connect with each other? I think so. It probably makes people feel included in an in group. That’s necessary when you’re used to being in an out group. So, connection can be the support network to deal with the prejudice. When prejudice does not exist does that support network need to be there? I think people will always need support from their comrades/fellows/pals.
 
Interesting question. And one that can be asked of racial identity and racism.

I think that identity is something that humans have, and that it is socially constructed. Sometimes that will be due to one’s being in a group discriminated against. If there is no discrimination (an honourable and for now at least hypothetical goal), I don’t think identities will cease to exist. But it is worth asking what they would/will consist of. I think to answer that will include looking at the value of the identity in those circumstances.
 
Homosexual identity is not dependent on homophobia but it would look a little different in a non-homophobic context. As said above, people form groups based on marginalised characteristics, but also simply shared characteristics.
I would like to see -phobias and the importance of sexual identity disappear, partly because it would make it easier for people whose identity changes over their lifetime, or those who would like to explore it without committing to any particular group. Labeling people can be helpful but in my ideal progressive society there wouldn't be need for it.
 
Homosexual identity is not dependent on homophobia but it would look a little different in a non-homophobic context. As said above, people form groups based on marginalised characteristics, but also simply shared characteristics.
I would like to see -phobias and the importance of sexual identity disappear, partly because it would make it easier for people whose identity changes over their lifetime, or those who would like to explore it without committing to any particular group. Labeling people can be helpful but in my ideal progressive society there wouldn't be need for it.
This is the closest to a sensible answer I've seen on this topic for a very long time.

all too often the OP's question is not posed in good faith ( cue accusations of 'grooming' and 'recruiting' ironically something Religion and political cults have ot engage in to recruit as it's not a durable biological characteristic to be of a particualr faith or political alignments)
 
This is the closest to a sensible answer I've seen on this topic for a very long time.

all too often the OP's question is not posed in good faith ( cue accusations of 'grooming' and 'recruiting' ironically something Religion and political cults have ot engage in to recruit as it's not a durable biological characteristic to be of a particualr faith or political alignments)

I am weirdly pleased at having nearly made sense :)
This type of question is often asked in bad faith but I think trolls get weeded out of here (or ridiculed to their death) fairly quickly, so I assumed it's genuine.
 
I would say homosexual identity doesn't depend on homophobia per se, but has formed in our culture where heterosexuality is the 'default'. Perhaps homophobia always follows from that.

But I don't think ending all homophobia by itself would necessarily change the way we view homosexuality, but if heterosexuality was no longer the default it would of course fundamentally change how we viewed all sexuality and formed our identities in relation to it.
 
I had to look up what "wankers remorse" was.
Could you explain what the implications are you refer to in this context ?
so you'll be aware of what it is then and how this and the transgression of the social norms causes a reaction in the homophobe or transphobe who is aroused by attraction to the same gender and/or ot transgender people ...

see also Grindr useage stats when the RNC is in town and the level of searches for transgender porn in Red states ...
 
Last edited:
Read various stuff about how in several bits of the ancient classical world same-sex sex and attraction wasn't much of a hard component of identity, which strikes me as supporting the idea that only when the behaviour got othered did the identity grow more defined.
 
Read various stuff about how in several bits of the ancient classical world same-sex sex and attraction wasn't much of a hard component of identity, which strikes me as supporting the idea that only when the behaviour got othered did the identity grow more defined.
The "interesting" case is Rome, where as I understand it the homophobia was directly related to misogyny. It was okay as long as the man was not receiving and therefore still a man. There are clearly still elements of that in modern homophobia but there is also a lots more to it.
 
so you'll be aware of what it is then and how this and the transgression of the social norms causes a reaction in the homophobe or transphobe who is aroused by attraction to the same gender and/or ot transgender people ...

see also Grindr useage stats when the RNC is in town and the level of searches for transgender porn in Red states ...
A total separate discussion but I think it can be the transgression itself that is the turn on, rather than there necessarily being an actual attraction.
 
The "interesting" case is Rome, where as I understand it the homophobia was directly related to misogyny. It was okay as long as the man was not receiving and therefore still a man. There are clearly still elements of that in modern homophobia but there is also a lots more to it.
I agree, it can be about the literal and metaphorical penetration of hegemonic masculinity , which from personal experience some self-identified gay men can also experience....always the fucker never the fucked
 
Paradoxically , can transgression itself not also in some cases be the "attraction" ( "turn on ") ?
Being the fucked up animals we are no doubt.
But I was thinking specifically about porn, I think some will enjoy porn that shows acts they would never want to do in real life.
 
The "interesting" case is Rome, where as I understand it the homophobia was directly related to misogyny. It was okay as long as the man was not receiving and therefore still a man. There are clearly still elements of that in modern homophobia but there is also a lots more to it.
Ancient Greece originally, hence “Greek” being a colloquial term for anal sex
 
Ancient Greece originally, hence “Greek” being a colloquial term for anal sex
Different cultures at different times have had different attitudes to sex between men - and I’m particularly focussing on men - as sex between women could be seen as separate matter.

There are different names and attitudes for men who do the fucking and those who get fucked.

The predominant prejudice is reserved primarily for those men who get fucked - as a form of undermining “traditional” notions of manhood/masculinity by being penetrated - usually perceived to be associated with woman’s subjugated role.

IF those prejudices did not exist , would there have been any need to create particular derogatory categories for some men indulging in particular sexual practices ?

As danny la rouge alluded to , could there be some similarity to racial identities ( commonly referred to as “races” ) being the consequence of racism - rather than a perception that racism is somehow a consequence of the prior existence of “races” ?
 
Yeah, this is one of those things where it's tricky because I've not actually read Foucault, but I'm pretty sure Foucault is where to go (or one of the main places to go) if you wanna read more about this stuff.
For a more accessible starting point (and one that I have actually read) you can try the book-and-podcast Bad Gays:

There's an extract here, talking about how ancient Greek and Roman societies were not homophobic so much as bottom-phobic:

And another extract here:

It can be very easy to assume that the way we think about identities has always been the same. Our race, gender, sexual orientation, or nationality can seem like such an important, intrinsic part of ourselves that we assume they must have been important for people living in the past as well. But identities are, as Stryker has said, “where the rubber of larger social and cultural systems hits the road of lived experience.” They are constantly changing and being changed by the shifting structural realities of life, by systems of production and exchange, by the ways that we relate to one another.

Even the idea that people have a specific “sexuality” is remarkably recent—perhaps only 150 years old, emerging out of the rapidly industrializing colonial metropolises of Europe. The rigid segmentation of time into separated zones of work and leisure, along with moral panics about “backwards” people intended to justify colonial expansion and incursions into the supposedly immoral private lives of the working classes, inculcated the idea that who you fucked made you who you were. Even after the invention of “homosexuality” (and “heterosexuality”) in the late 19th century, most people who felt same-sex love and desire did not want to convert their feelings into identities, to subscribe to being medicalized and set apart.

These feelings were, instead, sources of shame, crimes for which they could be punished, and social taboos. As some people began to fight for their recognition and against medicalizing systems, movements began to emerge. The people who led these movements—at least, the ones that have succeeded in winning state recognition—were often not working-class or people of color, but instead members of the emerging bourgeoisie who sought to assign positive values to their sexual acts within the prevailing value systems of their time. And often to bad ends.

At the same time, working-class people, colonized people, and people of color have consistently lived, fought for, manifested, and expressed forms of social and sexual expression that have challenged both social prejudice towards sexual and gender minorities and the bourgeois politics of the gay elite. These challenges have often been bitterly resisted by that elite in their time, while still—owing to their embrace of mass politics and disruptive organizing—having far-reaching effects in our queer lives.

Often, after the fact, the queer elite will belatedly acknowledge these people, movements, moments, and struggles in an attempt to incorporate them into the dominant story of what it means to be gay or lesbian or trans, as though the working-class gays and sex workers, drag queens, and trans women of color at the Stonewall Inn in New York City’s West Village threw bricks at cops in order to win marriage equality for the gay and lesbian donor class.

It is this process of struggle and contestation that has created the very idea of what being gay or queer is—it has marked the production of queer cultures, the discussion of queer lives, and queer people’s search for historical examples to justify their own acts and identities. Even the term “gay” has changed; 50 years ago, the term had a broader meaning that included queer and bisexual people, transgender people, transvestites, and more: anyone who lived openly outside the heterosexual and cissexist norms of a more conservative society and suffered as a result. Today, it tends to refer to a more limited idea of same-gender sexual attraction. These definitions, too, are sites of struggle and negotiation.

It can be difficult, therefore, to find the right terminology to discuss people who might fit into such a category today, when such ideas and identities did not exist in their society. Can you call someone like James VI and I, a man who almost certainly had sex with other men, a homosexual, when that identity did not even exist as a concept at the time? When he was ruling England and Scotland, and beginning his campaigns of colonization in Ireland and America, nobody thought who they fucked had anything to do with who they were. So what does it mean to call James, or the Emperor Hadrian, or any number of nefarious nellies from history, “gay?”

We have decided to use that present-day term as a way of putting today’s homosexuality under a microscope and figuring out why it is troubled and incomplete, and why it failed to live up to its utopian promises of liberation. By discussing these people and their shared behaviors in relation to each other, we can begin to draw out characteristics and stories that might shed a light on how a contemporary gay identity came to exist—from ideas of what it means to be “a man,” to how same-sex desire has influenced major historical events, to how the dreaded heterosexuals came to exist, to understand themselves as opposed to queers, and to fear, police, and repress us. Our subjects may not have held a “gay” identity, but their lives can tell us so much about why we do.
 
The vitriol certainly 'helped" shape my younger self, in and out of denial and confusion.

A lot of it was fear. Fear of sharing. And of course, some people fearing having a bisexual pal or co-worker etc.

Some scars don't heal easily, if ever.

The confusion and sometimes vitriol would crop up every so often when I was told by gay and/or straight folk that I wasn't bi, or I must be on heat all the time if I was bi or that there's no such thing as being bi. Got sick of labels in the end, Tbh.

So, from a personal view - phobia certainly has an impact. It would be great if it went away. But I'd never want to see gay spaces close as the many cultures and histories and friendships are so very important.
 
Yeah, this is one of those things where it's tricky because I've not actually read Foucault, but I'm pretty sure Foucault is where to go (or one of the main places to go) if you wanna read more about this stuff.
For a more accessible starting point (and one that I have actually read) you can try the book-and-podcast Bad Gays:

There's an extract here, talking about how ancient Greek and Roman societies were not homophobic so much as bottom-phobic:

And another extract here:
ALL OF THIS ^^^^^^ thanks hitmouse
Here’s a poem , primarily directed at the commercial gay male scene - which has become a multi-billion dollar industry - concerning the eclipse of queer liberation for ALL , to the conservative assimilation of some -

Plea Bargaining

Please

Acquit us , we can’t help ourselves

we were born this way

who everybody FINDS attractive is already fixed at birth

( isn't it.....? )

Please

accept us in the military forces of the state

to be able to kill and die in the interests

of imperialism and big business

It would be an honour

( wouldn't it..... ? )

Please

Let us be compulsive consumers in a commercial ghetto

driven by drink , drugs and disposable sex

always looking for the next fix

Image is everything

( isn't it..... ? )

Please

let us conform to exclusive bottom/top roles

so we can imitate stereotypes

we were born that way too

( weren't we..... ? )

Please

Allow us to participate in the historically oppressive institution of matrimony

which became the subservience of woman as mother

- after she has "been given away" by one man , her father

to another man , her husband -

So we can pass as equally“normal”

( can't we.... ? )

Please , Please , Hear our Pleas
 
brixtonscot do you think we've lost something, been compromised and commercialised?

I know some people who don't really know anything Stonewall and current issues (and don't care) but I'm guessing that they are young or maybe confident that history and politics aren't worth spending too much time on.
 
Back
Top Bottom