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Ireland Votes No

Darios said:
The left isn't broadly supportive of collective institutions? Huh?

Oh and for those who missed it, Sarko's comments on the Irish vote:

[link]
Click to expand...

The way you put it [in an unqailified manner] can be said of the Right, too! Watch out - $25 billion a year just for agro-business subsidies in the US alone, for instance. They say "it's no good for you, if you're poor" - they even forbid it, via IMF and WB etc. A "collective institution" but not for the community as a whole - rather, for particular interests, for sure!!!

You bought it wholesale, it seems to me, this myth, the utopia of free market and an individual as a - what... R. Crusoe?!?

Yayks!:rolleyes:

P.S. Sarko has no right to do that, as France [as opposed to Germany, for instace] is barely a contributor to the EU coffers and had it not been for the EU they wouldn't have had such a strong [beautifully subsidised] agricultural sector or a strong role abroad [others have been paying to support their ex-colonies] etc. etc.:rolleyes:
 
gorski said:
The way you put it [in an unqailified manner] can be said of the Right, too! Watch out - $25 billion a year just for agro-business subsidies in the US alone, for instance. They say "it's no good for you, if you're poor" - they even forbid it, via IMF and WB etc. A "collective institution" but not for the community as a whole - rather, for particular interests, for sure!!!
Click to expand...

Are you intentionally disingenuous? We're talking about "the left" (whatever that actually means) here, not "the right". We can have a separate conversation about the latter if you like. So in other words, you agree that "the left" generally favours collectivised institutions? Yes or no?

We could of course simplify the whole thing and simply talk about "libertarian" versus "authoritarian" but that would put your precious Marx straight into the authoritarian camp wouldn't it?

gorski said:
You bought it wholesale, it seems to me, this myth, the utopia of free market and an individual as a - what... R. Crusoe?!?
Click to expand...

Ahh.... the old "no man is an island" chestnut. It is true that we have certain social instincts apparently evolutionarily hardwired into us. This still does not justify giving a vague social institution automatic supervenience over the individual. Funnily enough, because some of these things are hardwired, humans can and often do get along nicely without having to invent social spooks ('spooks' in the Stirnerite sense).
 
Darios said:
The advocation of a "Worker's state", used to crush the "bourgeoisie", however brief an existence Marx might have wanted for it, is one glaringly obvious example.
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I thought he just described what he thought was going to happen. Funnily, his views on the boom/bust nature of capitalism, the increasingly proletarian nature of all people working in a capitalist economy and the increasing concentration of wealth were pretty spot on.

In any event, unimpeded free trade and globalisation seem pretty authoritarian to many people, too.
 
Darios said:
The advocation of a "Worker's state", used to crush the "bourgeoisie", however brief an existence Marx might have wanted for it, is one glaringly obvious example.
Click to expand...

Marx never advocates any such thing. You might want to read Marx before writing about him.
 
bono said:
Yes, I voted. I voted yes. It was a difficult manuscript and it wasn’t very well explained at home. I think three things happened. The extreme left spread stories about what might happen and the extreme right spread stories about what might happen (and created a sort of unusual alliance in the No camp). But I think the third reason is perhaps more interesting: people don’t get Europe right now. Not just in Ireland but throughout Europe. Europe is a concept. It’s an idea. It has yet to become a feeling. And I think that, unless people feel Europe, feel what Europe is about, it will be hard for them to get excited about it (even though they have benefited so much from it, as Ireland has).
Click to expand...
Clitwit.
 
phildwyer said:
Marx never advocates any such thing. You might want to read Marx before writing about him.
Click to expand...

If you say so

We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling as to win the battle of democracy.

The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling
class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production;
Click to expand...

(emphasis mine)

From The Communist Manifesto.
 
And we should be extra silly not to notice that Marx is a politician at that point, writing a programmatic text, as contracted to... :rolleyes:

Of course, if you read it carefully, with some understanding and previous training, you will find the essential bit, so close and dear to him, where, in spite of the political aims, he manages to smuggle in, as it were, the methodically much more important position which starts from an individual...:cool:

But why bother, eh?:rolleyes:
 
phildwyer said:
Jesus, is that really what he said? What a wanker.
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Yep, france24 interview. Dunno whether he was tricked into posing cuntly in front of this No poster or what.

2008-06-bono.jpg
 
Ireland told to go back and get the vote right this time

Ireland will vote on treaty next year, EU says

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- Ireland has committed to hold a second referendum on the European Union's stalled reform treaty before the end of October 2009, the French government said Thursday.

France, which currently holds the EU presidency, wrote in a document expected to be endorsed by EU leaders at summit talks later Thursday that Ireland would vote again in return for changes to the so-called Lisbon treaty.
Click to expand...

A victory for democracy!
 
Erm you forgot to read the second sentence of your quote (assuming, of course, your final sentence wasn't supposed to be sarcastic?!)
 
A feckin joke...
The 'stupid' irish now have to amend their foolish rejection of the lisbon treaty..
It's good for business apparently..
Feck the ordinary people..

democracy?
funny enough the irish people didnt vote biffo cowen into power either...

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has confirmed he is going to hold a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty after the Government secured the legal guarantees it had requested over ethical issues, taxation, neutrality and the retention of a commissioner.

The deal was finalised at a European summit in Brussels today. However, the Government appears to have dropped its request to secure legally binding guarantees on workers rights in a new protocol that it will now seek to negotiate with its EU partners over coming months.
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link
 
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