Ireland Votes No

[butchersapron]

I think you need special education as you don't agree with me.

 

[gorski]

Indeed, in the pub!

 

[butchersapron]

Indeed, in the pub!

What?

 

[gorski]

Forget it, FFS, it's not about...

Oh, never mind.

 

[Malamud]

The EU was always fundamentally a capitalist project, mind.

In origin and in practice the EU was created to stop Germany and France from fighting each other every generation. As a Dutchman I'm glad that EU happened.

Those who don't like it should resign or be discarded, IMO.

 

[Malamud]

uniformed

I know it's just a typo, but I can't help feeling there's a Freudian slip in there.

 

[phildwyer]

A good constitution is just a few pages long tops. Any longer than that and it is probably the product of muddled thinking. On reflection, phildwyer is probably right to welcome Ireland's no vote.

I think I am. If only because it will be highly amusing to watch our leaders scuttling about desperately trying to find a way to ignore the manifest will of the people.

Seriously though, these buggers witter on endlessly about the need for democracy in Zimbabwe and such, but have no qualms whatsoever about telling the people they're stupid and ignorant when they vote against their own evil designs.

 

[stupid kid]

In origin and in practice the EU was created to stop Germany and France from fighting each other every generation. As a Dutchman I'm glad that EU happened.

Those who don't like it should resign or be discarded, IMO.

That and so the Americans would have somewhere to sell their wares - it's worked out quite well for them in that respect.

 

[gorski]

But now they are scared as the EU is selling their wares to the US more than just successfully...

And hence the current US administration's strategy and tactics re. undermining the EU via UK+Poland+2 smaller countries "mess it all up action", throwing a spanner into the works all the time, using lies and all manner of instruments at their disposal...

If the Social Democratic [leaning more towards the Scandinavian rather than the UK model] EU prevails than the US dominance in the world is undermined, in financial, manufacturing, scientific, technological, trade, political and other terms.

Already the WTO is feeling the heat from the EU in challenging successfully the hitherto sovereign/untouchable US agenda. Even more so with the BRIC countries using their weight to change things even further and move the scales even more away from the US...

So, quite a complex issue, actually...

Indeed, the EU was helped initially [the Marshall plan etc.] for geo-political, strategic and self-interested reasons.

But now... a different ball game is afoot...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who said that everyone is of good will and obliged, VP?

Nobody.

I said: that much one must do [provided there is a decent, wide and proper public debate] if one wants to vote with a good idea which way one's interests lie...

Yes, you did.

The point was that the Irish have said NO mostly on the basis of not knowing, not being informed...

My point was that because there is no obligation for people to inform themselves, that many don't and/or won't.
In terms of the Irish vote though, it's at least arguable that those institutions that had an interest in a "yes" vote couldn't have achieved one because the Lisbon Treaty couldn't be reduced into a form that would have been amenable to a wide-ranging public debate.
I suspect that elements of the treaty will now, over the next few years, be legislated piecemeal at a national level where possible.

 

[gorski]

You may well be right...

 

[CyberRose]

Unless the Irish voted "no" because they are perfectly happy with the EU the way it is, then something in the Treaty needs changing that would allow them to vote "yes". The EU needs reforming otherwise it will just become completely incapable of doing anything useful. I think the "if you don't know, vote no" campaign is pretty stupid - if you don't know, find out or don't vote! I think the major concern for Ireland is that they will lose voting power, so maybe the double majority that is weighted against populations should be abandoned and just have the areas affected decided by a simple majority to avoid getting bogged down.

 

[CyberRose]

I suspect that elements of the treaty will now, over the next few years, be legislated piecemeal at a national level where possible.

Like which areas?

I don't really think there is anything in an EU Treaty that can be incorporated into national law - they are directives and regulations - the Treaty is basically an operating manual about how the EU and its institutions work, none of which (I think) can be incorporated into national law is it just doesn't apply

 

[JHE]

Frank Furedi: Now it’s clear: the EU is an alien imposition in Europe

They have been libelled as an uneducated ‘horde’, yet Irish voters’ rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is a brilliant blow against the EU oligarchy.

Oligarchs cannot stand public humiliation. So when, last Thursday, the Irish electorate pointed their fingers and shouted ‘The Emperor has no clothes!’, the political elites of the European Union pretended that it was not them who stood exposed, but the Irish people.

EU officials, politicians and their friends in the media all read from the same carefully rehearsed script following the Irish electorate’s rejection of the Lisbon Treaty. Adopting a kind of fantasy language, with all the hallmarks of classic Orwellian doublespeak, the EU and its representatives told the world that the ‘No’ vote did not really mean ‘No’, since Irish voters were thoroughly confused.

[Continued...]​

 

[CyberRose]

So what do you think should happen with the EU now? Leave it as it is? Do you think nothing needs changing with the EU?

 

[8ball]

Ted, I'm horribly confused.

 

[Idris2002]

 

[Idris2002]

If the Social Democratic [leaning more towards the Scandinavian rather than the UK model] EU prevails than the US dominance in the world is undermined, in financial, manufacturing, scientific, technological, trade, political and other terms.
:

Most of the reading I've done on this subject suggests that the vision of an ill-defined 'social-democratic' European Union is mere wishful thinking on the part of those who indulge in it.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You wouldn't be thinking "John Palmer"?

 

[gorski]

@Idris

I never touch that Friedman shite any more, not even with a bargepole, meself... You know, those economists, by and large, are dangerous people!!!

In fact, most of the reading I do these days clearly states the alternatives between the old so called neo-con/neo-lib, "tried and tested" shite and the relatively new and extremely successful Social Democratic, EU shit. Strangely enough, there is not enough literature on the subject. See, for instance, http://www.esping-andersen.com/ - especially his acclaimed "Politics against Markets" and many more... Or David Held's gazzilions of publications. For instance: http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-vision_reflections/article_1918.jsp
Or maybe even http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...toc_r&cad=0_0&sig=n7PzyZaIQio9nBq2Mogx1Ljx5BY
Here is an overview: http://www.fes.de/IPG/IPG2_2006/HOUT.PDF

All the authors from this branch of thinking on the subject also clearly state that the latter is far more demanding, complex than the former but it's infinitely more inclusive, rewarding, sustainable and ultimately valuable - at least to the great majority of population [worldwide].

Moreover, the literature clearly states that if we don't do it - we're in serious trouble. From ever more wars, to financial and generally speaking economic instability to social unrest onwards...

Conflict [the Anglo-American adversarial, Social Darwinistic] based model

versus

Co-operation [EU, especially Scandinavian, Social Democratic] based one.

I know which literature is far more rewarding, creative and properly informed and enlightened.

The other stuff I find utterly spiritually lazy, based in a very dark view of Human Nature and the outcomes for Humanity - if our society is to be based on such "ideas" - are very bleak [if we are to trust those sources of "knowledge" and just listen to the same old same old].

Personally, I like new and untested, different, creative, a challenge...

Horses for courses, I guess...

 

[Chairman Meow]

Ted, I'm horribly confused.

 

[fela fan]

I don't think that a parliament is, per se, a bad idea when organising societies on a scale of millions of individuals. A small group of representatives chosen to consider often complex decisions that are made on behalf of all. Personally, I'd choose MPs at least partially by lottery, but I'd still have a parliament. How else would it be done?

Similar to your idea, but for me mps would be in their jobs for, say, six months, and chosen via the same method that they use for jury service.

The civil servants would provide stability and know-how.

 

[phildwyer]

That Miliband wanker was squirming on the radion again this morning. It is so funny listening to the news these days:

Item 1: "David Miliband today said Robert Mugabe was a horrid dictator who refuses to listen to the will of the people and therefore should be strung up by the balls at the earliest oportunity."

Item 2: "David Miliband today told the Irish to fuck off, refused to allow a British referendum, and said we were bloody well having the treaty whether we like it or not after him and his mates have worked so hard to write it, because no-one except him and his mates know what's good for them."

 

[Teaboy]

That Miliband wanker was squirming on the radion again this morning. It is so funny listening to the news these days:

Item 1: "David Miliband today said Robert Mugabe was a horrid dictator who refuses to listen to the will of the people and therefore should be strung up by the balls at the earliest oportunity."

Item 2: "David Miliband today told the Irish to fuck off, refused to allow a British referendum, and said we were bloody well having the treaty whether we like it or not after him and his mates have worked so hard to write it, because no-one except him and his mates know what's good for them."

Yup that sounds about right.

I saw miliband being interviewed last night, he has to be the smarmyiest of all the ministers at the moment, I felt sick and had to change channel.

 

[butchersapron]

He still found time to laugh/smarm at the dead parrot sketch like a student circa 1980.

 

[Belushi]

Come on you guys, Management have to be allowed to Manage.

 

[butchersapron]

Culchie bastards

 

[phildwyer]

Item 3: "The entire population of Europe today marched on the European Parliament in Brussels, built a huge bonfire of copies of the Lisbon treaty, and dropped a small nuclear device on it. In response, David Miliband said he appreciated that some people had worries about one or two aspects of small print, but that an amendment to sub-clause 416(b) ought to allay any remaining concerns."

 

[CyberRose]

That Miliband wanker was squirming on the radion again this morning. It is so funny listening to the news these days:

Item 1: "David Miliband today said Robert Mugabe was a horrid dictator who refuses to listen to the will of the people and therefore should be strung up by the balls at the earliest oportunity."

Item 2: "David Miliband today told the Irish to fuck off, refused to allow a British referendum, and said we were bloody well having the treaty whether we like it or not after him and his mates have worked so hard to write it, because no-one except him and his mates know what's good for them."

People only want referendums or claim to be democratic when it suits them (ie when their aims would be met by having a referendum). But then we have a several massive threads on 42 day detentions saying how much this legislation should be opposed, yet would any of those people want a public referendum on the subject? No, never

And wtf is it about left wingers trying to make out everything is like Zimbabwe all of a sudden!? It makes you sound like a bit of a nob and makes people think you're talking out of your bottom (and ironically the left would be the first people to oppose any attempts by the West to intervene and sort Zimbabwe out despite acknowledging it is the worst place on Earth to live if you value you freedoms!)

phildwyer, are you happy with the way the EU is run at the moment? Think it's perfect as it is? Or do you think it needs changing to make it better? The fact is, the EU needs reforming and unless you're fine with the current EU, then I don't see the logic in opposing reform in favour of maintaining the status quo?

 

[Belushi]

The fact is, the EU needs reforming

I agree, The first step should be a referendum of all EU Citizens to see if we want an EU and then we'll take it from there.