Independence for Wales?

[editor]

With the debate in Scotland so tightly fought, there's reports of a growing hunger for independence for Wales, although it seems that there's still a long way to go.

Tomos knows the arguments against. Wales is not economically strong enough to cope by itself; its voice in Europe and the world would be too weak; its proximity to England (almost half of Welsh people live within 25 miles of the border) means the two countries are too closely entwined to separate; above all, those polls show that most people have no interest in independence.

But she is having none of it. "People tell us we're a poor country. Wales is not poor. We've got huge natural resources. We're poor because Westminster makes the rules. They've never made the rules in favour of us and it's getting worse. People are having to use food banks; I never thought that would happen. There's so much unemployment in my area [north west Wales] that young people are disempowered and leaving."

In recent years Plaid Cymru's strategy has been to speak of independence as a long-term aspiration. But as the yes campaign in Scotland has gained momentum, Plaid has become emboldened. Its leader, Leanne Wood, is calling for a constitution to be written by the people of Wales and says independence ought to be seen as normal rather than a pipe dream.

Hywel Williams, one of the three Plaid Westminster MPs, said party workers felt "energised and inspired by the possibility of change." The yes campaign was "not an epidemic but it is infectious," he said. "I think change is part of the history of these islands."

Adam Price, the former Plaid MP who made headlines a decade ago when he tried to impeach Tony Blair over the Iraqi conflict, called for the Welsh people to cast off the shackles of 600 years of English dominance.

"Six hundred years ago our state was destroyed," he said. "We're playing catch-up. There are 641 castles in Wales. We may be the most militarily occupied nation in the history of Europe. We have to go through a period of de-occupation in our minds. In this century, maybe in our generation, Wales will be an independent state. We need to prepare for that."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/12/wales-independence-yes-campaign-scotland-vote

 

[ddraig]

wrth gwrs!! of course

Carwyn Jones has been an embarrassment during the Scottish campaign

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"600 years ago"? "Our state"?

Kinell, if you have to invoke 600 years ago, your argument is lost before it even started.

 

[Belushi]

Yes, but only if the Welsh economy was in a substantially better state.

 

[Dillinger4]

One of the best books on Wales, The Welsh and Independence:

When was Wales?: A History of the Welsh by Gwyn A. Williams

It scans the landscape of Wales as sees the country for what it is - a people who, against all odds, have survived by making and remaking themselves generation after generation.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/When_was_Wales.html?id=QUJ0QgAACAAJ

 

[Belushi]

Managed to vote no when I meant to vote undecided

 

[Belushi]

Not that any of us Llundoners should have a vote

 

[editor]

"600 years ago"? "Our state"?

Kinell, if you have to invoke 600 years ago, your argument is lost before it even started.

Except Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different to mainstream English politics for centuries and - against all odds - has retained its own language. And that's no mean feat at all.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes, but only if the Welsh economy was in a substantially better state.

expand it to cover its early niddle ages borders, taking in brizzle and a swathe of what is now england. That should generate a few more quid

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Except Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different to mainstream English politics.

In what way?

 

[souljacker]

I don't think Wales has got much that England really wants, so your welcome to bugger off IMO.

 

[Belushi]

In what way?

Plaid Cymru have no English seats

 

[ddraig]

I don't think Wales has got much that England really wants, so your welcome to bugger off IMO.

please fuck off with this shit

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Plaid Cymru have no English seats

Wales is different because it has a nationalist movement? So a nationalist movement validates itself through its own existence?

 

[editor]

In what way?

Oh come on. Look at their voting patterns over the past 50 years, for starters. It also has a language that has survived numerous attempts to kill it off.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh come on. Look at their voting patterns over the past 50 years, for starters.

Compared to what? Yorkshire, perhaps? Or, more relevantly, the South West of England - rural seats for the Liberals and a few Tories, Labour doing well in the larger cities?

I would suggest to you rather the opposite - that where social conditions are similar, voting patterns across England and Wales have been similar.

 

[editor]

Compared to what? Yorkshire, perhaps? Or, more relevantly, the South West of England - rural seats for the Liberals and a few Tories, Labour doing well in the larger cities?

Compared to the government that is ruling them, for that is the bit that actually matters.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Compared to the government that is ruling them, for that is the bit that actually matters.

Same can be said of many comparably sized chunks of England.

 

[editor]

Same can be said of many comparably sized chunks of England.

Yes it can, and they should be free to pursue independence/devolution if they feel that they're not being represented.

So how does that take anything away from the debate about independence for Wales?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes it can, and they should be free to pursue independence/devolution if they feel that they're not being represented.

So how does that take anything away from the debate about independence for Wales?

It takes away from your claims that Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different from England in its politics.

 

[ffsear]

Yes, and kick Swansea out the premiership

 

[butchersapron]

UKIP have been polling higher than PC across wales in the most recent polls.

In fact, explicitly unionist parties have at least 84% support going by the welsh political barometer.

 

[editor]

It takes away from your claims that Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different from England in its politics.

Nope. Wales has, in the main, politically remained fundamentally different from the politics of the ruling government.

 

[editor]

UKIP have been polling higher than PC across wales in the most recent polls.

Yes, the political landscape is fragmenting due to the absence of anything representing the traditional Labour values that Wales used to be rock-solid behind.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nope. Wales has, in the main, politically remained fundamentally different from the politics of the ruling government.

It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?

 

[editor]

It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?

If you're going to wilfully ignore the clear point I've repeatedly made, I'm going to give up.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you're going to wilfully ignore the clear point I've repeatedly made, I'm going to give up.

I don't think your point is clear. I think it is confused and wrong.

 

[Belushi]

It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?

Not sure you're comparing like with like there; Wales is a nation like Scotland or Ireland, areas of England aren't.

 

[ddraig]

please don't wreck this thread with your antagonistic nit picking LBJ, please

 

[souljacker]

please don't wreck this thread with your antagonistic nit picking LBJ, please

Since when were you nominated thread policeman?