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Ian Tomlinson CPS verdict: "no realistic prospect of conviction"

detective-boy said:
In the case of someone with the IQ of a fucking amoeba, incapable of seperating different issues and different strands of an argument, someone so fucking simple that everything either has to be black or white, good or bad, then you're probably right ... which explains why it is posters like you who keep doing it ...
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i think you forgot your fav "cunt" there.

otherwise, the usual patient approach from our resident apologist for police killing and corruption
 
detective-boy said:
He was not alone. There was an idiot Commander who was shown on TV saying something like "If they want a fight, we're ready, bring it on". I have strongly criticised those comments from the start (and not just here). They should be the subject of disciplinary action in my view.
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Incitement to commit ABH more like.

Oh, but that can't happen, as ABH didn't occur, in spite of the whole world seeing it :facepalm:
 
detective-boy said:
In the case of someone with the IQ of a fucking amoeba, incapable of seperating different issues and different strands of an argument, someone so fucking simple that everything either has to be black or white, good or bad, then you're probably right ... which explains why it is posters like you who keep doing it ...
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amoeba don't fuck.
 
detective-boy said:
You cannot simply say that the police had a single tactic that day. Containment is one of a number of different tactics available to them and used in different situations. There may well have been a containment happening somewhere at the time of the Ian Tomlinson incident ... but the Ian Tomlinson incident was not directly part of any "kettle". You use "kettling" as an emotive term to stir up pictures in people's minds and to confuse the facts. It has taken on a life of it's own as in some way describing an illegal or overbearing tactic when containment is something that has been around for donkeys years (ask any travelling football fan) and one which, whilst some significant issues have arisen which need to be addressed about it's use in public order policing generally, remains both legal and effective in certain situations.

Ian Tomlinson encountered a cordon of officers preventing access to a certain area and moving down a street, clearing the public away ahead of them. He was free to move away in a number of other directions and he would not have encountered any police cordon or anything else preventig him going wherever he wanted along the majority of them. He was moving away from the cordon, in a street where there was no restriction of movement so far as I am aware, when he collapsed.

He was never contained or "kettled". He was NOT caught in the "middle of a kettling operation". To say otherwise is simply misrepresentation.


He was not alone. There was an idiot Commander who was shown on TV saying something like "If they want a fight, we're ready, bring it on". I have strongly criticised those comments from the start (and not just here). They should be the subject of disciplinary action in my view. They have been recognised as being "unwise" and I do not think we will see them again (and I hope that they will not be used internaly either - there is a balance to be struck between properly preparing officers for what they may face and for the possibility that they may need to use robust tactics and winding them up to the point where they are likely to overreact).
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I didn't "simply say that the police had a single tactic that day". I said they used the tactics of containment and violent intimidation to achieve an end other than merely managing the G20 demo; namely to instill fear in the in the masses before they embarked on their mythical "summer of rage". Rather than describing the TSG officers as "out of control", I think "off the leash" is nearer to the mark, as evidenced by the excessive and widespread violence and lack of ID numbers.
 
sus said:
I didn't "simply say that the police had a single tactic that day". I said they used the tactics of containment and violent intimidation to achieve an end other than merely managing the G20 demo; namely to instill fear in the in the masses before they embarked on their mythical "summer of rage". Rather than describing the TSG officers as "out of control", I think "off the leash" is nearer to the mark, as evidenced by the excessive and widespread violence and lack of ID numbers.
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bollocks.

they weren't off the leash.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...e-chief-i-saw-my-officers-do-nothing-wrong.do
 
detective-boy said:
Ian Tomlinson encountered a cordon of officers preventing access to a certain area and moving down a street, clearing the public away ahead of them. He was free to move away in a number of other directions and he would not have encountered any police cordon or anything else preventig him going wherever he wanted along the majority of them.
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He'd already encountered the cordons on King William Street, Lombard Street and Cornhill, he collapsed just past one on Finch Lane, had he kept going East he'd have come to another on Bishopsgate.

"Why do you misrepresent the facts??? :mad:" indeed.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Oh, but that can't happen, as ABH didn't occur, in spite of the whole world seeing it :facepalm:
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I'm not sure that that is an accurate summary. ABH (applying the strict legal definition) seems to have occured in the view of the CPS ... but their Charging Standards (i.e. policy) dictate that they will not prosecute it as ABH but as Common Assault is a summary-only offence the limitation period had passed before they decided they could prosecute it.
 
sus said:
I didn't "simply say that the police had a single tactic that day". I said they used the tactics of containment and violent intimidation to achieve an end other than merely managing the G20 demo; namely to instill fear in the in the masses before they embarked on their mythical "summer of rage". Rather than describing the TSG officers as "out of control", I think "off the leash" is nearer to the mark, as evidenced by the excessive and widespread violence and lack of ID numbers.
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I have no issue with any claim that containment was one of a variety of tactics used in the policing of the G20 protest in Cenral London that day.

My sole point was that to claim that Ian Tomlinson was caught up "in the middle of a kettling operation" was wrong.
 
winjer said:
He'd already encountered the cordons on King William Street, Lombard Street and Cornhill, he collapsed just past one on Finch Lane, had he kept going East he'd have come to another on Bishopsgate.
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There were cordons in all sorts of places. A big chunk of central City was affected by public disorder and policing connected with it. It appears Ian Tomlinson wanted to pass through that area and was steadily trying different routes and that he had encountered some cordons and kept trying different routes. Sooner or later he would have found a way around.

But that is NOT the same as him being caught up "in the middle of a kettling operation". He was never contained and most, if not all the cordons he encountered were not engaged in a containment.
 
detective-boy said:
There were cordons in all sorts of places. A big chunk of central City was affected by public disorder and policing connected with it. It appears Ian Tomlinson wanted to pass through that area and was steadily trying different routes and that he had encountered some cordons and kept trying different routes. Sooner or later he would have found a way around.

But that is NOT the same as him being caught up "in the middle of a kettling operation". He was never contained and most, if not all the cordons he encountered were not engaged in a containment.
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Surely you must admit that this is splitting hairs? He was not actively contained by one particular kettle, but found himself blocked my multiple cordons on different routes? How was he to respond to that other than as if he was kettled?
 
detective-boy said:
I'm not sure that that is an accurate summary. ABH (applying the strict legal definition) seems to have occured in the view of the CPS ... but their Charging Standards (i.e. policy) dictate that they will not prosecute it as ABH but as Common Assault is a summary-only offence the limitation period had passed before they decided they could prosecute it.
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Can you explain this please? If they think ABH occurred, what policy dictates that they cannot prosecute it as ABH?
 
img_0864-medium.jpg


Nuff said..
 
detective-boy said:
The point is why the mention of the "middle of a kettling operation" was made ... clearly to cause people to draw their own (inaccurate) conclusions about the circumstances of the incident. Why? (It would be just as inaccurate to say that it happened in "the middle of a concerted attack on a bank" or something ...)
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How inaccurate would it be to say that they were shielding him from rioters throwing bottles and that they had to move him to a place of safety?

In comparison to your moaning about kettling semantics...how inaccurate is what the police said...maybe you have some kind of non-chromatic scale.
 
ymu said:
Can you explain this please? If they think ABH occurred, what policy dictates that they cannot prosecute it as ABH?
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Don't hold your breath, he went on an abusive rant session and flounced again. Is anyone keeping count?
 
Meet PC Simon Harwood the Territorial Support Group police officer who is accused of hitting Ian Tomlinson and causing his death.


Yesterday this photo was circulated by his solicitors Reynolds Dawson to the editors of all the national newspapers for publication, in an attempt to ensure that photographers didn’t camp outside his home in Carshalton in Surrey. The Sun ran the picture about an hour ago on its website.

In their letter, Reynolds Dawson allege that there has been “a great deal of threatening material published about him on the internet which has caused him and his family great concern”. They are presumably alluding to the disbelief and outrage at the decision by the Director of Public Prosecutions to take no action over Ian Tomlinson’s death, causing considerably more than ‘great concern’ to Ian’s family. However, Harwood’s lawyers go on to say that “he is aware that the media will not allow his family and neighbours any peace until it has a photograph of him, and he has taken the view that the only way to protect them from harassment by the photographers camped outside their addresses is to provide one”. They add:

For the avoidance of doubt, it would be inappropriate for PC Harwood to comment publicly on the Director of Public Prosecution’s decision or on other proceedings in the way that others have chosen to. Accordingly, there could be no legitimate purpose in approaching PC Harwood for further comment.

Now personally, I’m not interested in what Harwood has to say about anything unless it is in the dock and in front of a jury. Equally, anything that prevents his lawyers from trying to argue in future that a fair trial is impossible, because of intense interest from newspapers more interested in headlines than justice, has to be good. After all, there still remains a realsitic possibility that the DPP’s decision may be subject to legal challenge and that Harwood may yet have to account for his actions in court.

But given how shocking this case is, it is still important to be able to put a face to the name. Anonymity granted to police officers normally extends far beyond what ordinary members of the public can ever expect – not unlike the kind of different treatment routinely granted to policce whenever they are accused of causing someone’s death.
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simon-harwood.jpg


Thanks to BristleKRS for providing this info

http://www.blowe.org.uk/2010/07/face-of-officer-accused-of-killing-ian.html
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Surely you must admit that this is splitting hairs?
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No. IT's being accurate and calling someone who is trying to link his death with "kettling" so that next time it happens they can go "And don't forget, Ian Tomlinson was killed by kettling". It's the foundation laying for lies. (They'll do it anyway, just wait and see ...)

How was he to respond to that other than as if he was kettled?
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Just like a motorist does when confronted by multiple roads blocked by, say, a protest - turn round and wander off to try another way ... which is what he was doing when he collapsed and died. If you are "kettled" you can't "wander off" anywhere - that is, er, the basic fucking point of the tactic ... :rolleyes:
 
detective-boy said:
You support the public libelling of people, do you? Of trial by mob and / or media? :rolleyes:
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Seeing as they seem to have incompetently fucked up or let lapse other opportunities for trial then there isn't really much choice, is there?

Every man and his dog can see that this guy was out of order, a uncontrolled knobber that assaulted a member of the public. Yet we're meant to stomach the prospect of him being suspended on full pay and then being dismissed with no further action

Justice should seen to be done. Not one officer or official that I'm aware of has faced any effective sanction as a result of this suspicious bungle, from the officers who misinformed the family, from the bod who appointed such a controversial coroner, from the body who decided that not charging with assault within time would be acceptable and so on. Justice should be seen to be done, and that's not going to be done by forcing an officer just to resign (again). Who is culpable for all these fuck ups and why has nothing been done?

That bloke deserves more than a public name and shame - a mere slap of the wrists really
 
detective-boy said:
Just like a motorist does when confronted by multiple roads blocked by, say, a protest - turn round and wander off to try another way ... which is what he was doing when he collapsed and died.
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You missed the bit about being hit by a policeman with a baton despite having turned round to wander off...
 
tarannau said:
Every man and his dog can see that this guy was out of order, a uncontrolled knobber that assaulted a member of the public.
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If the sign said "assaulter" then it would be justifiable. But "murderer" is simply libellous. Even if it was possible to evidentially prove causation, it would not have been murder - there is patently no evidence that he intended to kill or cause really serious harm.

Justice should seen to be done.
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Indeed it should. Where have I ever suggested otherwise? But if there are problems with the system / other people involved in the investigation / decision making process it is neither right nor just to simply scapegoat him.

That bloke deserves more than a public name and shame - a mere slap of the wrists really
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I look forward to seeing your support on threads suggesting the introduction of chain gangs, wearing orange uniforms, for run of the mill scum, so that justice can be seen to be done and so that those who make poeple's lives a misery can be named and shamed ...
 
stephj said:
You missed the bit about being hit by a policeman with a baton despite having turned round to wander off...
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Yes. Because it's got absolutely fuck all to do with the point being fucking discussed, has it?

(Or did you actually mean to post "Well, maybe not. But I think it would be reasonable to say the cordons were connected with the kettling operation, even if they were some distance away. After all they were part of the same operation."? I only ask because you may have intended to post something relevant and, accidentally, have posted some absolute shite by mistake. Just thought I'd check, after the flaming I got for failing to notice that you had actually meant something entirely different from what you actually posted on another thread ...)
 
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