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House price inflation at 26%. Avg London House £400K. How long can this really go on?

House prices have to be limited by how much purchasers can afford to pay.
At some point it must stop.

The problem is the distortion of the market by outside investors with effectively bottomless pockets.

e2a: And the more expensive houses get, the more people are forced to rent and the more money there is to be made from buying to let. It's a positive feedback loop that could theoretically continue until nobody who actually lives in London owns their own home.
 
Meanwhile, here in the East Midlands I could easily buy a nice-ish house with a modest deposit and a mortgage I could afford on a reasonable salary. Except of course competition for even a minimum wage job is fierce around here, and employee turnover is high, so there's not much hope of an ordinary person buying a house here either.

In short, London isn't the only place where stuff is fucked up. An entire generation is looking at renting for life, not just an entire generation of Londoners.
 
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I think mortgage lenders are still way to lax as well. One of the things we should have learnt from the last few years let alone all though recessions is that the banks are prepared to lend way too much.

I've been recently going through the process and the amount of money they are prepared to lend is eye watering, and this at a time when interest rates are as low as they have ever been and probably ever will be. Thing is I know a lot of people just go to the top end of what they're being offered which means a lot of people are going to fucked with something as simple as an interest rate rise let alone a job loss or illness.
 
...This has to crash, doesn't it? This is insane.

people will stop wanting to live in London, and companies will want to re-locate, when its an 80 mile commute to get your children into school, or the nearest hospital is in Birmingham.

the lunacy will continue only so long as its just about possible (and seen as acceptable/normal to eek out an existance on the combination of Tax Credits and a 'normal' wage (for 'normal', i'd suggest any salary where you're not going to be able to save up £50K+ for a deposit in less than 20 years). once that line is crossed and it becomes impossible to employ a teacher, or nurse, or cleaner, or garage mechanic etc... in greater London then London ceases to be a viable society, and people/companies will have to leave and go where the essential services are.

for those wondering, £795pcm gets you this in Shropshire http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-43656352.html. or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-45119872.html?premiumA=true in Worcester for £885pcm. London's 'average' property price of £400K buys this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44894203.html in Bristol, or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-46351889.html outside Hereford, or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-30532089.html?premiumA=true in Penrith, or this in Lincoln http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43124281.html?premiumA=true

some of these places have electricity and supermarkets. Hereford has even stopped making Welsh people ring a bell as they walk down the street...
 
The government's approach is to bring in more stringent mortgage conditions, which makes it a bit harder for people buying with a mortgage. Does nothing to limit investors or landlords paying with cash.

I can remember working out a few years ago (before BTL mortgages became widespread) that one of the student landlords round where I was living was making enough in rent to buy a new house outright every month. Nothing will put the brakes on them unless they do something nasty with stamp duty/the gallows.

My house up here in the north is still about 15% down on what it was at the peak, and no sign of any change, and I'm not even in a particularly depressed bit of the north. Still too high here anyway, as everywhere.
 
people will stop wanting to live in London, and companies will want to re-locate, when its an 80 mile commute to get your children into school, or the nearest hospital is in Birmingham.

the lunacy will continue only so long as its just about possible (and seen as acceptable/normal to eek out an existance on the combination of Tax Credits and a 'normal' wage (for 'normal', i'd suggest any salary where you're not going to be able to save up £50K+ for a deposit in less than 20 years). once that line is crossed and it becomes impossible to employ a teacher, or nurse, or cleaner, or garage mechanic etc... in greater London then London ceases to be a viable society, and people/companies will have to leave and go where the essential services are.

...

Alternatively what happens is that people end up crammed into unsuitable housing and communting by bus for miles because that's what's available. Is there any precedent for a city just not being able to fill low paid jobs? There's plenty for massively overcrowded housing.
 
You guys can't have your cake and eat it. If you aspire to buying a house you are part of the problem.

Bullshit. It's not a matter of property, it's a matter of security. Tennancy laws in this country are massively skewed in favour of landlords, meaning buying a house is the only way you can have any kind of certainty that you'll not be thrown out on your arse for some spurious reason and left to pull a deposit, agency fees and two months' rent out of thin air within the space of a month or become homeless. Anyone who could buy a house of their own, and who intended to stay where they currently live for more than a year or two, would be mad not to. The alternative is to line some idle, grasping cunt's pockets with your pay cheques for the rest of your days.

Landlordism is the root of the problem, landlords and anyone else who see a house not as a home but as a way to make money.
 
Alternatively what happens is that people end up crammed into unsuitable housing and communting by bus for miles because that's what's available. Is there any precedent for a city just not being able to fill low paid jobs? There's plenty for massively overcrowded housing.

I'm not sure how the city functions even now. There must be plenty of minimum wage jobs that would barely even pay for the commute into London from the home counties, never mind the cost of renting there as well. Housing benefit alone keeps the whole system afloat, at vast expense to the taxpayer and zero real benefit to actual working people. Having somewhere to live is a necessity, not something you should have to rely on state handouts for.
 
Tennancy laws in this country are massively skewed in favour of landlords, meaning buying a house is the only way you can have any kind of certainty that you'll not be thrown out on your arse for some spurious reason and left to pull a deposit, agency fees and two months' rent out of thin air within the space of a month or become homeless. Anyone who could buy a house of their own, and who intended to stay where they currently live for more than a year or two, would be mad not to. The alternative is to line some idle, grasping cunt's pockets with your pay cheques for the rest of your days.

Exactly, I've never had aspirations to be a 'home owner' but we basically had to buy when the stress and cost of living in rented properties became too much to bear. Mortgage is ridiculously high but so are rents.
 
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Exactly, I've never had aspirations to be a 'home'owner' but we basically had to buy when the stress and cost of living in rented properties became too much to bear. Mortgage is ridiculously high but so are rents.

But a mortgage ends sooner or later, or at least you can sell up and have something to show for what you've paid in.
 
But a mortgage ends sooner or later, or at least you can sell up and have something to show for what you've paid in.
Well unless we want to move to a significantly cheaper area then selling our house will pay for one house which we will need to live in. That's why I'm still not in favour of house price rises even if it would make me richer on paper. And it won't end till my mid 60s, though if I do make it to that age at least there's some prospect of a rent free retirement.
 
people will stop wanting to live in London, and companies will want to re-locate, when its an 80 mile commute to get your children into school, or the nearest hospital is in Birmingham.

the lunacy will continue only so long as its just about possible (and seen as acceptable/normal to eek out an existance on the combination of Tax Credits and a 'normal' wage (for 'normal', i'd suggest any salary where you're not going to be able to save up £50K+ for a deposit in less than 20 years). once that line is crossed and it becomes impossible to employ a teacher, or nurse, or cleaner, or garage mechanic etc... in greater London then London ceases to be a viable society, and people/companies will have to leave and go where the essential services are.

for those wondering, £795pcm gets you this in Shropshire http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-43656352.html. or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-45119872.html?premiumA=true in Worcester for £885pcm. London's 'average' property price of £400K buys this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44894203.html in Bristol, or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-46351889.html outside Hereford, or this http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-30532089.html?premiumA=true in Penrith, or this in Lincoln http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43124281.html?premiumA=true

some of these places have electricity and supermarkets. Hereford has even stopped making Welsh people ring a bell as they walk down the street...

Jobs.
 
Landlordism is the root of the problem, landlords and anyone else who see a house not as a home but as a way to make money.

Other countries don't seem to have a problem with landlords. France, for instance, has a rental culture, even in Paris. So why does Britain have a problem?
 
I thought this was quite an interesting article on the topic http://www.if.org.uk/archives/5393/housing-crisis-what-housing-crisis

It would be foolish to describe the current situation in the UK housing market as a “crisis,” as this suggests some unforeseen events which suddenly come to a head and which the government has to deal with urgently.

Far from it, the state of the housing market is the inevitable result of quite deliberate changes in UK government policy over the last thirty years or so, which we are feeling the full impact of now.
 
Other countries don't seem to have a problem with landlords. France, for instance, has a rental culture, even in Paris. So why does Britain have a problem?

Other places haven't seen the huge increase in renting that Britain has in recent years, and probably nowhere has ever seen a sustained property price bubble like the one London is currently trapped in. I would think that, precisely because renting for life is so much more normal in France and Germany, there isn't the same culture of treating tennants like garbage and using housing a short-term cash cow.

Like I said earlier, what we've got in Britain at the moment is a positive feedback loop where a shortage of affordable properties causes an increased demand for rental properties which increases returns for rentiers which increases the amount of housing stock bought for rent which reduces the availability of affordable homes still further and so on. The establishment is sustaining this cycle by not building houses fast enough, by exempting buy-to-let mortgage repayments from tax, by allowing the banks to give out these mortgages with zero capital so owner-occupiers can't compete.

This wouldn't happen in countries where most people rent already because you wouldn't get that sustained increase in the number of people who are renting. They probably also have governments that aren't foolish enough to allow (or lets be honest, encourage) this sort of thing to happen.
 
This madness is not going to stop until people simply decide, en masse, to stop paying rent. Landlordism has no place in this century, morally speaking it's no different to feudalism.
 
It will go on for as long as they can get away with it. The added problem for young people now is not only can they not afford to buy a place they can't even afford to rent in some areas :mad:

I grew up in rural Devon. There's no rental market to speak of and the gap between wages and house prices is, IIRC, worse than anywhere else in the country. For most young people it's either live with your mum forever or leave :(
 
Other countries don't seem to have a problem with landlords. France, for instance, has a rental culture, even in Paris. So why does Britain have a problem?

Because their tenancies offer a bit of security/longevity.

What most people here are stuck with are short hold tenancies and situations where they can (and often are) moved on with little notice. This means it's pointless investing time and effort making somewhere nice, and is destructive to the comfort and mental security that comes with having a place you can call your own. On a wider scale it prevents the formation of settled, secure communities with neighbours that know and look out for each other.

A cynic might say it helps to provide a mobile, flexible workforce and helps keep communities from forming and organising things among themselves.


There's also a lot of (probably middle-class and young, hence noisy) resentment of the impact on housing availability and cost of the huge buy-to-let craze of the last decade or so.

I've mentioned this before, but when I started working at the place I am now, fifteen years ago, pretty much any working person could buy a house. We had apprentices on seven or eight grand in their late teens buying small twenty grand terraces in Bradford as their first home. Now most people are excluded unless they're fortunate in getting a large bung from their family. It's fucked, and it's never coming back.
 
The thread title says it all really. London house prices are rising at 26% a year, and the average price is presently £400,000. Which means that if the current trend continues, house prices will double every 3 years. In a decades time, the average London house will be 3.2 million squidilees. This has to crash, doesn't it? This is insane.
It is insane. I don't have a particularly complex or nuanced view of the housing market, but my simple model seems to work so far.

If enough people can afford houses at, say, a certain price, to create competition, given the limited supply of houses, the price will rise as the buyers effectively outbid each other. The limit of their bidding is the availability of funds - size of deposit, income and multiple available, basically. So as the bidding goes up, the buyers thin out, as people can't afford it any more, and you reach equilibrium at a higher level.

That, basically goes on all the time the money is available. Which, until recently, seems to have been the case. But if the Bank's suggestions about controlling mortgage lending is implemented, that will (possibly quite sharply) restrict the supply of buyer, which will have a dampening effect on the prices; or interest rates may begin to rise, which will create an additional problem - while new mortgages will have to be restricted (because at 3% more interest, you have to borrow a lot less to be able to make the same monthly payments), you will have the additional problem that people who have taken out high-multiple mortgages are finding themselves unable to make the payments. Hence repossessions. Banks had to get quite careful in the last lot (1991 or so), because they realised that if they unloaded too much repo property onto the market at discount prices, they were having a bad effect on the values of other properties they might well have mortgages secured against, but if they spot a market about to topple, they may want to repossess and sell out while they can get a reasonable chunk of their loan value back, ie quickly.

You can see why the Government has been so desperate to prop up the property market - I think it is a major, if not the major driver in our economy at the moment, and I can only guess at what the effect on the overall economy would be of a housing crash. And property is one of those strange things where, although at the outer end, the market is subject to the usual forces, the whole thing seems to run on a kind of perception that there's never a better place to put your money than property (mainly true, especially while supply is so restricted, but not a cast-iron guarantee).

But it's not hypothetical - when you've got interest rates at very low levels, and somewhat likely to rise, and borrowing at multiples of 10x salary, it doesn't take an awful lot to destabilise the situation. And what we get is not a "crash", but a "correction", as house prices return, at significant cost to many, to levels more appropriate to the prevailing circumstances.

It is going to happen. What will finally make it happen is probably not easy to predict. I think it'll be a shock of some sort. But when the shock happens, and the curve starts to tip the other way, I've got a feeling we're going to see something that makes the early 90's (I think the correction there was -40% or something) look like a walk in the park.
 
I've said this before on here - but my French brother in law pointed out the other day that people in Britain and Ireland are OBSESSED with owning their own house (although that may not be possible except for the rich in London....)

He said that in France, Italy and other European countries, people dont buy a house at all, until they retire (or perhaps not...). They just rent. Maybe London in particular is going to go in that direction...
 
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