That’s a short-term perspective. I would say that your approach facilitates the long-term shift of Labour (and thus all politics) to the right. It is directly because of your approach that we now have the likes of Starmer in the first place.
Hold your nose and vote Labour?
- Thread starter TopCat
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Plumdaff
joy in people
Opinion polls show British people are keen on nationalisation, support strikes, are flexible on immigration, and support action on climate change. The right may have power in this country (and nothing will change with Starmer's election on that) but it's not because British people are especially conservative.
I sincerely don't think voting Labour at the moment is the least worst option. It's just voting for more of the same.
I sincerely don't think voting Labour at the moment is the least worst option. It's just voting for more of the same.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Then what is?
maomao
普費斯
It shouldn't if used correctly but trying to pass it off as an imperative should be punished by hanging.
Plumdaff
joy in people
I don't think there's any electoral options at the moment. I'm not happy saying that.
eta. Actually it's possible that large votes for the Greens, Plaid and SNP may put pressure on Labour from the left. But these are people who lost Scotland for at least a generation and took no message from that, so, unlikely.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Oh come come there are always electoral options. There's just no point in any of them
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
So we don’t vote, and get another 5 years of the current lot? I just can’t face that. Labour may be Tory lite (or not even very lite at all), but I’d at least rather at least have that particular shitshow than the current one.
It’s a depressing future
Plumdaff
joy in people
I'm not suggesting we do nothing, but we lose the idea that meaningful change will be found through our current electoral set up. There's all sorts of ways we can apply pressure on politics that are arguably more powerful than our votes in a system where a lot of opinion has been systematically driven out.So we don’t vote, and get another 5 years of the current lot? I just can’t face that. Labour may be Tory lite (or not even very lite at all), but I’d at least rather at least have that particular shitshow than the current one.
It’s a depressing future
People who wanted Britain out of the EU also had no electoral options at one point. They created those options with two decades of gradual political build up. The reason they got the referendum was precisely because the Tories knew that they couldn’t take this right-wing support for granted any more. As long as Labour know they will get the left wing base regardless of what they do, their only incentive is for tracking to the right.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
So we don’t vote, and get another 5 years of the current lot? I just can’t face that. Labour may be Tory lite (or not even very lite at all), but I’d at least rather at least have that particular shitshow than the current one.
It’s a depressing future
I'm not under the illusion that my vote will make any difference either way tbh. It's just a minuscule mark of approval really. As far as that does matter, I'm not using it to approve of Keir Starmer.
seeformiles
Lost in the wood
Pretty safe Labour seat round our way but still holding my nose while I vote for the bastards
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Can you back that up?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
So we don’t vote, and get another 5 years of the current lot? I just can’t face that. Labour may be Tory lite (or not even very lite at all), but I’d at least rather at least have that particular shitshow than the current one.
It’s a depressing future
The problem is this: we've been here before and we know how it ends.
Call for a Labour vote as 'the least worst' option
Labour elected and manage the state & economy in the same way as the Tories (i.e. they leave everything to the market and get out of its way)
Only major differences between the parties are a) managerial competence b) culture issues and c) arcane squabbles over points of minute detail of interest only to a few thousand people in Westminster.
Disillusionment increases (under Blair around 5 million people just dropped out of 'politcal partipation' entirely and didnt even bother voting agan)
Tories are returned 5/10 years later
Repeat cycle
Depressing as it may be (and it is depressing) the only meaningful activity open to us - community work, trade union work etc - involves starting again/small scale stuff/trying to rebuild stuff. It does not involve partipation in the parliamentary process.
Plumdaff
joy in people
Starmer thinks Just Stop Oil are "contemptible" and will not revoke any of the newly issued North Sea oil and gas licences.
www.independent.co.uk
Please explain to me how this would be any better.
Just Stop Oil’s demands are ‘contemptible’, says Starmer
The Labour leader confirmed that he would not revoke drilling licences issued by Rishi Sunak
www.independent.co.uk
Please explain to me how this would be any better.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
This is one policy area.
Plumdaff
joy in people
Please explain to me, in any policy area of your choosing, how Labour would be better. I'll even pretend that you can trust any pledge Labour has made, contrary to all available evidence.
Yes, in many ways through many lenses. It’s about the overall picture it forms, not specific positivistic experimentation, though. The easiest example I can give is through the counterfactual I just pointed out — when the Tories stopped being able to rely on the right-wing vote, their response was to culturally track to the right and offer a referendum on Europe. Previously, they had been attempting to woo the centre ground. You’re offering no pressure on a Starmer to do the equivalent on the other side.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Everything’s a short term perspective, daft to pretend otherwise. Starmer got in by pretending not to be a right wing shit. And, if it weren’t for Corbyn, he’d look exactly the same as most Labour leaders (albeit a bit duller). Not voting Labour won’t really change that. The votes of a slightly racist bloke in a marginal are worth ten of ‘us’ in a safe seat.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
only if you can't count
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
We can look at history and compare outcomes. I don't know what labour's current policies because i've not seen their election manifesto. We can look at how Yvette Cooper has opposed Braverman's neo fascist incompetence and lawbreaking. I don't believe that, however badly Labour might end up treating refugees, it will never be as awful as Braverman and Jenrick. It wasn't labour MP's blaming children for being the victims of child traffickers snatching them from under HO protection.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
What pressure does not voting put on Starmer? Had Labour been voted in at the last GE he would have been much less likely to end up as leader. Your argument makes no sense. Sure, labour might lose in five to ten years with a tory return. How is that worse than having those tories in during those five to ten years as well?
I'm all for community/trade union/grassroots action. But it hasn't achieved anything. Enough is Enough failed. JSO hasn't stopped Oil. XR seem to be extinct. Can't Pay ended up paying. All of these were well inetnioned i'm sure. Every attempt at building a new party on the left seems to fail, including being met with the same cynicism this conversation has received on here. I'm not saying we shouldn't try things like that either, but unless and until an alternative presents itself you have the option to cast a vote. If you choose not to, and I can't stop you, then own the consequences. Blaming other people isn't a good look
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
That history includes New Labour, and later when Corbyn came along, he was sabotaged by the right wing of the party, who are also now in control. Your argument is looking very shaky already.
The lack of any policies from Starmer's Labour doesn't ring any alarm bells for you?
So we can expect competent and legal persecution of immigrants and asylum seekers? Fantastic.
teqniq
DisMembered
The thing that is contemptible is Starmer himself.Starmer thinks Just Stop Oil are "contemptible" and will not revoke any of the newly issued North Sea oil and gas licences.
Just Stop Oil’s demands are ‘contemptible’, says Starmer
The Labour leader confirmed that he would not revoke drilling licences issued by Rishi Sunak
Please explain to me how this would be any better.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
If the current government had a policy of machine gunning small boats, then I feel certain that Sir Keir Starmer would decry that inhuman policy but would not commit to revoking it.
magneze
🎧
Would be good to see a big Green vote in the next election to give a message that none of this is ok.Starmer thinks Just Stop Oil are "contemptible" and will not revoke any of the newly issued North Sea oil and gas licences.
Just Stop Oil’s demands are ‘contemptible’, says Starmer
The Labour leader confirmed that he would not revoke drilling licences issued by Rishi Sunak
Please explain to me how this would be any better.
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Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I'm leaning towards sending a message through that, even if I don't agree with a lot of the Green manifesto. It's that or spoil my ballot with "Starmer is just another Tory" across it.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
This is an extremely daft thing to say. Leaving aside the arguments over exactly how far Don't Pay were responsible for the energy cap, are you going to tell, for instance, the workers at the port of Liverpool who recently got a 14-18% pay rise that trade union grassroots action hasn't achieved anything? The various public sector pay disputes may have settled for less than they should've got, but they've also settled for considerably more than was on offer before they took action. My local branch leadership is literally in talks with my employer right now as a result of us taking action. There are still guards on Northern Rail trains, the residents of the Aquarius estate in Hulme are still continuing to block the site of the Gamecock pub being turned into student accommodation, and so on and so on. Are you saying that these people would have achieved more if they'd just done a proper politics by waiting until an election is called some time next year and then voting for a party that doesn't even pretend to give a shit about them?
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Are marginals and safe seats always marginals and safe seats? Or do once-safe seats sometimes become marginals or even lost, and how does that happen if so? They've got a tory MP in Don Valley now.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
In the context of the electoral cycle and providing an alternative to voting for the least worst option, no it hasn't. Winning strike action is great, but it doesn't speak to the proposition we are disucssing. So all those actions will continue in the context of the worst possible political backdrop.
Your final question is a false dichotomy and I never said you should do one or the other. Show me where any of the actions you have mentioned have resulted in a better alternative to the Tories than what we currently have?
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